A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 25 January 2012
OK.
Player A brings personality x into play during dynasty phase and proclaims for 3 honor.
Player B reacts with Unimpeachable name to rehonor a dishonorable courtier.
Player B then reacts with Rhetoric to steal the honor gain.
Does this sequence of events work? or would the honor gain from rhetoric simply rehonor the personality?
Relevant text:
Unimpeachable Name Reaction: Before the resolution of another player's action: Reduce each Honor loss from its effects by 3 (minimum 0). You may target and rehonor a dishonorable Personality.
Rhetoric Reaction: Before a player gains or loses Honor from an action's effects, bow your performing Courtier: Choose another player. If the Courtier's Chi is higher than or equal to the Honor gain or loss, the chosen player instead of the original player takes the gain or loss.
Proclaim Reaction: After you bring a Personality in your province with your Clan alignment into play without Clan discount, if it is your turn: Gain Honor equal to his base Personal Honor.
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 26 January 2012
OK.
Player A brings personality x into play during dynasty phase and proclaims for 3 honor.
Player B reacts with Unimpeachable name to rehonor a dishonorable courtier.
Player B then reacts with Rhetoric to steal the honor gain.
Does this sequence of events work? or would the honor gain from rhetoric simply rehonor the personality?
Yes, that works as you would like.
The Unimpeachable Name effects resolve fully before your opportunity to play Rhetoric even arrises.
1. Player A announces Proclaim. 1b. Before Proclaim's effects resolve, Player B reacts with UN and rehonors his intended Rhetoric performer. 2. Proclaim's effects start resolving, but... 2b. Just before Proclaim can bestow the Honor on Player A, BAM! Player B reacts with Rhetoric. Burn!
EDIT: However, as pointed out below, undertaking that sequence is not technically necessary. Rhetoric will never rehonor a dishonorable performer anyway; read on for the explanation...
A player, 28 January 2012
Reading thisruling, I had the impression that it was implicit in the ruling that an honor gain redirected by a Rhetoric performed by a dishonorable personality would rehonor the performer (instead of the gain). Was this intended?
From the CR: "Before a player gains one or more points of Honor from an action or trait that targeted, came from, or was performed by one or more of his or her dishonorable Personalities, if rehonoring the Personality is not one of that action or trait’s effects, the Personality's rehonoring is substituted for the Honor gain;[...]" (emphasis mine)
However the honor gain doesn't seem to come "from" Rhetoric: Definition of "from": "From Some things check to see if costs, effects, actions, targeting, or other game procedures come “from” a given source. The source is the card that the effect, action or targeting is printed on, or the rulebook if it is printed there" According to this definition, the honor gain comes from the action that created the gain (for example, from the Proclaim), not from the Rhetoric that merely redirected. So, a dishonorable personality wouldn't rehonor because of performing a Rhetoric that redirects an honor gain. Is this correct?
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 28 January 2012
Reading thisruling, I had the impression that it was implicit in the ruling that an honor gain redirected by a Rhetoric performed by a dishonorable personality would rehonor the performer (instead of the gain). Was this intended?
From the CR: "Before a player gains one or more points of Honor from an action or trait that targeted, came from, or was performed by one or more of his or her dishonorable Personalities, if rehonoring the Personality is not one of that action or trait’s effects, the Personality's rehonoring is substituted for the Honor gain;[...]" (emphasis mine)
However the honor gain doesn't seem to come "from" Rhetoric: Definition of "from": "From Some things check to see if costs, effects, actions, targeting, or other game procedures come “from” a given source. The source is the card that the effect, action or targeting is printed on, or the rulebook if it is printed there" According to this definition, the honor gain comes from the action that created the gain (for example, from the Proclaim), not from the Rhetoric that merely redirected. So, a dishonorable personality wouldn't rehonor because of performing a Rhetoric that redirects an honor gain. Is this correct?
Excellent point, Mamoru, and entirely true.
To clarify officially what Mamoru said:
While you CAN rehonor a dishonorable Courtier before he performs Rhetoric, there's no need; he can still perform it to its full effect. The source of the Honor gain remains unchanged, only who receives it. There is never a gain "from" Rhetoric, therefore it will never rehonor the performing Courtier instead.