Destruction and Out of Play

L5R CCG Rules board, 9 January 2012

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 9 January 2012

Wedge and Suitengu's Surge

A unit is targeted with Wedge. Later it is removed from the game with Suitengu's Surge in response to be targeted by a different, unrelated, effect. Can a card be destroyed while out of play by a delayed effect? Does Wedge still destroy the personality. The rule book only defines destroy as a term that removes cards from play.

Relevant Text: Suitengu's Surge. Reaction: After an action targets a unit you control, bow this Shugenja: Target the unit. Remove it from the game, preserving bowed status and all attachments, including tokens. Its owner returns it to the game in that state after the next turn begins, in his home under his control, without considering it to be entering play.

Wedge Battle: Target your Personality: You may not target cards in his unit with actions until after this battle ends. After this battle’s Resolution Segment begins, double his Force and the Force of each Follower in his unit. Destroy him after the battle ends.

Destroy (Celestial Comphrensive Rules Glossary) 1. When a card in play is destroyed, it leaves play, and enters its appropriate discard pile, or leaves the game if it was a created card. See Areas of the Game, Discard Piles; Areas of the Game, Outside the Game. 2. When a province is eliminated, this is called "destroying" the province. See Battles, Resolution Segment. 3. A card “destroyed with” a Personality is one destroyed by the same effect that destroyed the Personality, or by the rule that a destroyed Personality’s attachments are also destroyed.

Jon Palmer (rules official), 9 January 2012

Wedge and Suitengu's Surge

A unit is targeted with Wedge. Later it is removed from the game with Suitengu's Surge in response to be targeted by a different, unrelated, effect. Can a card be destroyed while out of play by a delayed effect? Does Wedge still destroy the personality. The rule book only defines destroy as a term that removes cards from play.

Relevant Text: Suitengu's Surge. Reaction: After an action targets a unit you control, bow this Shugenja: Target the unit. Remove it from the game, preserving bowed status and all attachments, including tokens. Its owner returns it to the game in that state after the next turn begins, in his home under his control, without considering it to be entering play.

Wedge Battle: Target your Personality: You may not target cards in his unit with actions until after this battle ends. After this battle’s Resolution Segment begins, double his Force and the Force of each Follower in his unit. Destroy him after the battle ends.

Destroy (Celestial Comphrensive Rules Glossary) 1. When a card in play is destroyed, it leaves play, and enters its appropriate discard pile, or leaves the game if it was a created card. See Areas of the Game, Discard Piles; Areas of the Game, Outside the Game. 2. When a province is eliminated, this is called "destroying" the province. See Battles, Resolution Segment. 3. A card “destroyed with” a Personality is one destroyed by the same effect that destroyed the Personality, or by the rule that a destroyed Personality’s attachments are also destroyed.

"Out of play" and "Removed from the game" are separate states, and that is pertinent to this question. A card that has been removed from the game cannot be destroyed by a delayed effect such as Wedge (although given that Wedge prevents Suitengu's Surge from targeting the unit in the first place, I'm not sure how you pulled this one off).