A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 1 December 2011
I know you don't normally answers EE rules questions but Alex specifically invited someone to ask this question.
Alex Jones wrote:Toku666 wrote:It seems like it would be a good idea to wait for Emperor Edition's release and query the Rules Team at that time. Otherwise we'll just be going back and forth on this.
Shrine to the Heavens is legal today, Lee. If someone were to ask a question about it without refering to Daigotsu's Guidance, we'll gladly answer...
Alex
Will Shrine to the Heaven's trait stop Diagotsu's Guidance's trait? Ie I have Togashi's Guidance in play along with Shrine to the Heavens and one of my provinces reveals Daigotsu's Guidance. I use Shrine to the Heavens and choose Togashi's Guidance and then Daigotsu's Guidance enters play so I have two celestials in play. Daigotsu's Guidance trait triggers and tries to discard all Kami guidances in play. Will Daigotsu's Guidance succeed?
I think Daigotsu's Guidance will not discard Togashi's Guidance because The Shrine to the Heavens trait does not state a duration so it defaults to end of turn negated all discarding of the chosen celestial from another celestial entering play and Daigotsu's Guidance entered play and thus triggered it's trait.
Alex Jones (rules official), 1 December 2011
I know you don't normally answers EE rules questions but Alex specifically invited someone to ask this question.
No. I stated that if a question were asked about Shrine to the Heavens, we'd answer it, but not questions about Daigotsu's Guidance.
For example: On Shrine to the Heavens, what does "because the other Celestial is entering play" mean? This phrase refers to the Rulebook effect that discards Celestials controlled by the player bringing a Celestial into play. It does not refer to effects from traits or Reactions triggered by a Celestial entering play.
A player, 1 December 2011
I have a bit of confusion about this thread.
Just for relevance, i'm going to cite the rules on celestials:
Celestials Celestials are a new card type introduced in Path of the Destroyer, with graphics of clouds in their frame. They represent the influence of divine beings in Rokugan. They have no stats. Playing Celestials If any Celestial cards are revealed in a player's province at any time, after any triggers to the card(s) being revealed take place, the player follows this sequence for any Celestials still in the province: [CLARIFIED 3 Oct 2010] A. The Celestial cards enter a specially created entering-play area. B. Any restrictions on their entering play are checked. If these conditions are not met for any of these Celestial cards, they return to the province they came from. If these conditions are not met for all of them, Steps C and D do not happen. C. The player discards any Celestials he controls. D. The Celestial cards enter play from the entering-play area. E. The entering-play area ceases to exist.
And also, for clarity, i'm going to cite L5R Search's text for Shrine to the Heavens.
Shrine to the Heavens eTemple Bow this card: Produce 2 Gold. After one of your Celestials is revealed in a province: You may choose one of your Celestials in play. If you do, it is not discarded because of the other Celestial entering play.
(Emphasis mine)
First: I am confused how the shrine to the heavens and the rulebook interact at all. From my understanding, the rulebook does not explicitly state that the reason the celestial is discarded is because of another Celestial entering play, and so my question is how is it that the rulebook effect is negated at all by the shrine of the heaven's trait?
As an aside however, if the shrine of the heaven's specifically stated something about the rulebook i'd understand, but according to the rulebook itself, the old celestial is being discarded before the new celestial even comes into play. I think the rulebook should be altered to reflect that the cause of the Old Celestial being discarded is that the new Celestial is entering play.
An unimportant additional confusion: While Daigotsu's Guidance's trait is the source of the discard effect, the trigger is still the Celestial entering play. Are you saying that "because" refers to the source of the effect and not to the trigger of said effect?
I'm sure my confusions are due to my own misunderstanding of something.
Alex Jones (rules official), 9 December 2011
I have a bit of confusion about this thread.
Just for relevance, i'm going to cite the rules on celestials:
And also, for clarity, i'm going to cite L5R Search's text for Shrine to the Heavens.
(Emphasis mine)
First: I am confused how the shrine to the heavens and the rulebook interact at all. From my understanding, the rulebook does not explicitly state that the reason the celestial is discarded is because of another Celestial entering play, and so my question is how is it that the rulebook effect is negated at all by the shrine of the heaven's trait?
As an aside however, if the shrine of the heaven's specifically stated something about the rulebook i'd understand, but according to the rulebook itself, the old celestial is being discarded before the new celestial even comes into play. I think the rulebook should be altered to reflect that the cause of the Old Celestial being discarded is that the new Celestial is entering play.
An unimportant additional confusion: While Daigotsu's Guidance's trait is the source of the discard effect, the trigger is still the Celestial entering play. Are you saying that "because" refers to the source of the effect and not to the trigger of said effect?
I'm sure my confusions are due to my own misunderstanding of something.
In the text you quote, there is the following: A. The Celestial cards enter a specially created entering-play area.
The Celestials in play are discarded after the newly revealed ones have entered an entering play area. Post hoc ergo propter hoc does apply in this instance.
Also, you ask: An unimportant additional confusion: While Daigotsu's Guidance's trait is the source of the discard effect, the trigger is still the Celestial entering play. Are you saying that "because" refers to the source of the effect and not to the trigger of said effect? The answer to this is yes.