Silent Rot and Red Crane Dojo

L5R CCG Rules board, 22 October 2011 to 23 October 2011

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 22 October 2011

I have a player who thinks we can perform Silent Riot with an unbowed Red Crane Dojo.

Silent Rot Ninja Battle: Target your unbowed Ninja: Target an enemy card. Bow it if it has no attachments. Destroy it if it has any Poison tokens.

Red Crane Dojo Ninja • Dojo Bow this card: Produce 3 Gold, or 4 Gold when paying for a Ninja card.| Reaction: Even if this card is bowed, after an action targets your Personality: Remove Ninja and Shadowlands from him until the action ends.

Even though Im' pretty sure that you cannot and Ithink I have demonstrated that to him, I guess he'll only listen to an official ruling or maybe a more accurate reason than mine.

Can you help clearing it out ?

Alex Jones (rules official), 22 October 2011

I have a player who thinks we can perform Silent Riot with an unbowed Red Crane Dojo.

Silent Rot Ninja Battle: Target your unbowed Ninja: Target an enemy card. Bow it if it has no attachments. Destroy it if it has any Poison tokens.

Red Crane Dojo Ninja • Dojo Bow this card: Produce 3 Gold, or 4 Gold when paying for a Ninja card.| Reaction: Even if this card is bowed, after an action targets your Personality: Remove Ninja and Shadowlands from him until the action ends.

Even though Im' pretty sure that you cannot and Ithink I have demonstrated that to him, I guess he'll only listen to an official ruling or maybe a more accurate reason than mine.

Can you help clearing it out ?

That works.

The Rule of Location (which I am assuming is what you think would stop it) says: A card in a unit must be at the current battlefield to be targeted by, or explicitly perform, a Battle action.

However, a Holding is not "a card in a unit", so it is not bound by the Rule of Location.

A player, 22 October 2011

This is a follow-up to this subject: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=94545&p=1251827

I'm actually surprised of your answer. It wasn't actually the rule of location that was preventing it from happening, in my opinion.

Our debate mostly resolved around the definition of "perform" made in the comprehensive rules.

In that chapter, two things are stated:

For cards whose most recent printing was prior to The Plague War: if the Personality or Follower was targeted by targeting in the base wording of the action’s constraints block (between the two colons). [CHANGED 8 August 2011]

(Which Silent Riot is)

Only Personalities and Followers may perform actions; no other card type may be chosen as a performer. [ADDED 22 Feb 2011]

My point was to basically say: - > You have to choose a Ninja to perform an action. As per the second quote, it would have to be a Personnality or a Follower.

His point was to say: -> U choose a holding to perform my action, therefore my action is not performed so I don't fall into any of the "perform" cases.

While Celestial is almost over and letting such an "oddity" continue for the couple of months left is ok in my opinion. But, since it was discuessed on the french forums, we believe there might something to cover here for Emperor Edition to avoid this kinds of things to happen in the future (with the new wording on cards, it might disappear by itself but I believe it might be good to put this under scrutiny to avoid bad things to happen).

Alex Jones (rules official), 22 October 2011

This is a follow-up to this subject: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=94545&p=1251827

I'm actually surprised of your answer. It wasn't actually the rule of location that was preventing it from happening, in my opinion.

Our debate mostly resolved around the definition of "perform" made in the comprehensive rules.

In that chapter, two things are stated:

(Which Silent Riot is)

My point was to basically say: - > You have to choose a Ninja to perform an action. As per the second quote, it would have to be a Personnality or a Follower.

His point was to say: -> U choose a holding to perform my action, therefore my action is not performed so I don't fall into any of the "perform" cases.

While Celestial is almost over and letting such an "oddity" continue for the couple of months left is ok in my opinion. But, since it was discuessed on the french forums, we believe there might something to cover here for Emperor Edition to avoid this kinds of things to happen in the future (with the new wording on cards, it might disappear by itself but I believe it might be good to put this under scrutiny to avoid bad things to happen).

Targeting in constraints only indicates performing if the targeted card is a Personality or Follower (and the ability is on a card printed prior to The Plague War).

If Silent Rot said, "Choose your performing unbowed Ninja" then you would have to choose a Personality or Follower, but it doesn't, so you don't.

As you point out, this situation can't occur (hopefully) in Emperor Edition, because of the introduction of explicit performing.

A player, 22 October 2011

On this topic: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=94545#p1251870

Since Silent Rot predates The Plague War, does its constraints block imply performing?

Or phrased another way, would Silent Rot targeting Red Crane Dojo have been a legal choice BEFORE the change in card format in BtD?

Alex Jones (rules official), 23 October 2011

On this topic: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=94545#p1251870

Since Silent Rot predates The Plague War, does its constraints block imply performing?

Or phrased another way, would Silent Rot targeting Red Crane Dojo have been a legal choice BEFORE the change in card format in BtD?

Since Silent Rot predates The Plague War, does its constraints block imply performing? Not exactly - targeting in the constraints block in abilities printed prior to The Plague War implies performing only when the targeted card is a Personality or Follower.

Or phrased another way, would Silent Rot targeting Red Crane Dojo have been a legal choice BEFORE the change in card format in BtD? Yes

A player, 23 October 2011

Following this: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=94545&p=1251827#p1251827

If I have a Ninja Terrain or Kata in play, can they perform Silent Rot?

A player, 23 October 2011

No, per the glossary: "Only Personalities and Followers may perform actions; no other card type may be chosen as a performer."

However such a Ninja Strategy card would be a legal first required target for Silent Rot, assuming it is unbowed.