A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
Rout
Battle: Move a target unit home. Destroy one of its attachments (if any).
Near Miss
Reaction: After another player's Battle action targets one of your attachments: Negate the attachment's destruction from the action's effects.
Am I correct that near miss will stop the destruction of an attachment from rout since it targets a unit and therefore every card in the unit at once?
Am I correct that near miss will stop the destruction of an attachment from rout since it targets a unit and therefore every card in the unit at once?
Incorrect. There is no rule I can find that when a unit is targeted, every card is individually targeted. Just the Personality is.
http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Glossary_U#Unit: "Targeting a unit is the same as targeting its Personality."
http://rules.l5r.com/CE_Card_types#Units: "When a unit is targeted, this targets its Personality."
Also precedent here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=91814
In response to viewtopic.php?f=59&t=92373
Under the glossary entry for "Unit" found here: "An effect like “Destroy a unit” or “Bow a unit” is considered to be multiple separate effects, each affecting one card in the unit (see Definition of effects). Effects on a unit are applied to the Personality and all cards in the unit at the same time."
Emphasis mine
This rule is not relevant here, because targeting is not an effect. When a unit is targeted, its Personality alone is targeted, not his attachments.
But we have a problem with the rules of a unit. In the beginning of the section the rules state that a unit is made up of a Personality "and all his attached cards". From this you can get the understanding that if i'm targeting a unit, I'm targeting the personality and "all his attached cards". Later on it states that "Targeting a unit is the same as targeting its personality". I believe that both of these are in conflict as if the unit is considered the personality and all the attached cards, then it cannot be only targeting the personality if i'm targeting a unit rather than a personality.
imho I think the phrase "targeting a unit is the same as targeting its personality" is more of a clarifier for the age old question of "If i'm targeting the unit, can I react with something that says, after an action targets your personality?"
A unit is made up of a Personality and all his attached cards. Tokens on a Personality or an attachment are in the unit, but are not part of the unit, because they are not cards. ... Targeting a unit is the same as targeting its Personality.
But we have a problem with the rules of a unit. In the beginning of the section the rules state that a unit is made up of a Personality "and all his attached cards". From this you can get the understanding that if i'm targeting a unit, I'm targeting the personality and "all his attached cards". Later on it states that "Targeting a unit is the same as targeting its personality". I believe that both of these are in conflict as if the unit is considered the personality and all the attached cards, then it cannot be only targeting the personality if i'm targeting a unit rather than a personality.
imho I think the phrase "targeting a unit is the same as targeting its personality" is more of a clarifier for the age old question of "If i'm targeting the unit, can I react with something that says, after an action targets your personality?"
When a unit (as a whole) is targeted, the only card that is also individually targeted is its Personality.
So I saw this, and while I can't fault the logic, I think it is very confusing for new players that see Unit = Personality and all attachments, and effects applied to a unit are multiple individual effects that apply to each card separately, but targeting is it's own thing and the same rules don't apply. It is a subtle difference, yet one that causes much confusion for the new player, as the referenced thread indicates.
The outcome of the original query leads me to believe Rout will be gone for Emperor, but it also leads me to caution the rules Jaunta that anything that can be done to make the targeting rules and the effect rules be more in line with each other would be a good thing, to avoid future confusion on this issue.
RE: viewtopic.php?p=1223962#p1223962
So, does rout actually target the attachments as it does state "Battle: Move a target unit home. Destroy one of its attachments (if any)."? It does explicitly state "target unit" and no card states "target whole unit" or "target a whole unit" so one must assume that target unit and target whole unit are the same thing.
one example that we all know also destroys the attachments via is 1,000 cuts technique which states "Text Battle: Choose your performing unbowed Kensai and bow two of his Weapons: Destroy a target enemy unit." It had been ruled previously that the destruction of all of the cards in the unit are separate individual effects that happen simultaneously. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to destroy the attachments of somebody protected via last one with 1,000 cuts technique.
If rout does target the whole unit and you're able to react with near miss off of the targeting, you'd still have to protect an item before the one to be destroyed would be chosen.
"EXCEPTION: Effects that move or otherwise transfer a unit from one location to another affect only the Personality; the attached cards are not moved separately, but go with him. Attached cards cannot move in isolation, and effects that attempt to move an attached card alone fail."
(D)oes rout actually target the attachments(?)
It does not.
viewtopic.php?p=1224696#p1224696
Zen Faulkes wrote:siddin wrote:(D)oes rout actually target the attachments(?)
It does not.
My problem with this is that route specifically says "Move a target unit home." And the ruling with The Last One and 1000 Cuts Technique shows that when something says "target unit" it's also targeting the attachments. The EXCEPTION under the Unit keyword stops the effect of rout trying to send home the attachments separately, but it doesn't stop the targeting of the unit. So if rout (Move a target unit home) doesn't target the unit, but 1000 cuts technique (Destroy a target enemy unit.) does then there is a problem with wording and things that state that they target a unit don't actually target a unit and the ruling for either 1000 Cuts Technique or rout would have to be overruled.
viewtopic.php?p=1224696#p1224696
My problem with this is that route specifically says "Move a target unit home." And the ruling with The Last One and 1000 Cuts Technique shows that when something says "target unit" it's also targeting the attachments. The EXCEPTION under the Unit keyword stops the effect of rout trying to send home the attachments separately, but it doesn't stop the targeting of the unit. So if rout (Move a target unit home) doesn't target the unit, but 1000 cuts technique (Destroy a target enemy unit.) does then there is a problem with wording and things that state that they target a unit don't actually target a unit and the ruling for either 1000 Cuts Technique or rout would have to be overruled.
What "ruling with The Last One and 1000 Cuts Technique"? The only relevant ruling that I can find is this one, which, like all responses in this thread, quite clearly states that 1000 Cuts Technique does not target any of the attachments in the targeted unit.
There is no requirement in the rules that a card needs to be targeted for an effect to affect it. Targeting a unit targets only the Personality in that unit, and none of his attached cards.
Rout does not target any attachments, and neither does 1,000 Cuts Techinque. Both are quite capable of destroying attachments without targeting them.