The Last One vs. half breath strike and 1000 cut technique
L5R CCG Rules board, 18 March 2011 to 21 March 2011
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 18 March 2011
If i play half breathe strike on a last one personality do i gain 3 honor?
half breathe strike text: Reaction: After the resolution of another player's action that targeted your Duelist during a battle, show another Iaijutsu card in your hand: Target an enemy Personality with 3C or lower at the current battlefield. His controller may destroy him. If he is not destroyed, gain 3 Honor.
If i play 1000 cut technique on a last one personality do i destroy all his attachments?
1000 cut technique text: Battle: Choose your performing unbowed Kensai and bow two of his Weapons: Destroy a target enemy unit
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 18 March 2011
If i play half breathe strike on a (Personality affected by The Last One) do i gain 3 honor?
Yes. Half Breath Strike looks for whether destruction actually happens. As destruction did not, the honor gain applies.
| No. The Last One negates the entire effect, not just the Personality's destruction.
Yes, but does that prevent the other cards in the unit from being destroyed? Past rulings on The Last One, such as this one, make clear that discrete effects are compared individually to the Last One's negation. Or, put another way, The Last One does not have an "effects do not occur" wording.
Meanwhile, from the Comprehensive Rules on Units, "Effects on a unit are applied to the Personality and all cards in the unit at the same time." By it's text, The Last One "negate[s] effects of other player's actions that bow, dishonor, move, or destroy him" (emphasis mine), but provides no explicit protection for its unit. The distinguishing criterion, I suppose, is whether the rulebook's "effects on a unit..." clause separates 1,000 Cut Technique's destruction of each card in the unit into discrete effects.
EDIT: As further evidence to support my belief, this ruling on Stone Guardian vs. unit destruction implies that The Last One's attachments may be similarly doomed. EDIT 2: Linked to the previous discussion. I appear to be terrible about doing that.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 19 March 2011
Past rulings on The Last One, such as this one, make clear that discrete effects are compared individually to the Last One's negation.
In the linked question, those are all clearly separate effects from Game of Sincerity.
The distinguishing criterion, I suppose, is whether the rulebook's "effects on a unit..." clause separates 1,000 Cut Technique's destruction of each card in the unit into discrete effects.
There is no such rule. "Destroy a unit" is one effect. It is not shorthand for a "Destroy the Personality" effect plus a series of "Destroy each of the Personality's attached cards" effects.
Coming from here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=89545&view=unread#p1186896
I find this ruling to contradict a previous ruling made by Bayushi Loic in here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=89464&p=1185774&hilit=unit#p1185774, where he says:
(snip)...The Last One would not negate any effect that applies to an attachment in the unit. For example Impetuous Challenge bows the duel's loser's unit so if the Personality who is The Last One loses this duel, all cards in his unit bows except himself.
As The Last One text says that it negates effects that affect "him" (the Last One-ed personality), I can't find any reason why it would also protect it's attachments from an effect that affects the whole unit.
So, what is the correct one?
A player, 19 March 2011
With regard to this topic
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=89545
How does Zen's latest attempt at answering it relate to this similar topic by Bayushi Loic?
Surely the two are contradictory? If Fearless Defense wil bow the rest of the cards in the unit, why won't 1000 cuts technique destroy them by the same logic?
Nowhere on the text of The Last One is there a clause protecting cards in his unit
Open: Target your Personality: Destroy all of your other Personalities. If this destroyed at least four Personalities, permanently give your targeted Personality +4F, and until the end of the game, negate effects of other player's actions that bow, dishonor, move, or destroy him.
The comprehensive rules has this to say about units.
Effects on a unit are applied to the Personality and all cards in the unit at the same time.
Is it possible to have clarification and consistency on rulings please?
Azrael
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 19 March 2011
With regard to this topic
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=89545
How does Zen's latest attempt at answering it relate to this similar topic by Bayushi Loic?
Surely the two are contradictory? If Fearless Defense wil bow the rest of the cards in the unit, why won't 1000 cuts technique destroy them by the same logic?
Nowhere on the text of The Last One is there a clause protecting cards in his unit
Open: Target your Personality: Destroy all of your other Personalities. If this destroyed at least four Personalities, permanently give your targeted Personality +4F, and until the end of the game, negate effects of other player's actions that bow, dishonor, move, or destroy him.
The comprehensive rules has this to say about units.
Effects on a unit are applied to the Personality and all cards in the unit at the same time.
Is it possible to have clarification and consistency on rulings please?
Azrael
Point taken on previous ruling. I'll take it up with the Rules Junta.
I'll just say this: I couldn't find that previous ruling. Not for lack of trying, but for some bizarre reason, the "Advanced Search" function has a great big, blind spot regarding The Last One. Entering "Last One" as a search term for the Rules Forum retrieves no hits. None. Not even this post, which clearly has "Last One" in the title.
I have no idea why that is, but it makes it very difficult to search for precedents.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 21 March 2011
Okay, as is so often the case, there was a rule that solves this. It's just one that doesn't come up very often.
Contrary to my previous suggestion, "destroy a unit" is actually a bunch of separate effects, not one effect. So a Personality affected by The Last One can have all attachments destroyed by an effect that destroys the unit.