Only Actions Speak and The Thriving Light

Hello!

I announce an action that will produce an honor gain, like Wall of Honor for example. My opponent reacts during the announcement of the action with Only Actions Speak. Before the resolution of the action, I react with The Thriving Light. Now, which of the two reactions will affect the honor gain first? Does it matter whose turn it is? And if my Thriving Light reduces the gain to 0 before O.A.S. affects it, am I right to think that the rest of my honor gains for the phase will not be affected either? Thanks a bunch!

Relevant Texts: The Thriving Light Reaction: Before an action's resolution: Until that resolution ends, reduce the next Honor gain or loss by 5 (minimum zero)

Only Actions Speak Reaction: After an action is announced: Negate all Honor gains until after the action's resolution. At that time if this negated any gains, negate all Honor gains until the end of this phase and draw a card.

In response to this: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=84015#p1106345

It would seem that what you are saying makes sense if OAS and TTL both had the same trigger. But they don't... OAS reacts when the action is announced... and has a delayed effect that triggers AFTER the action's resolution. TTL triggers before the action's resolution. So, when the delayed effect is resolved, it would seem like TTL would have successfully negated OAS delayed effect from resolving successfully. And, since the delayed effect is triggered AFTER resolution and TTL is triggered BEFORE, then the whole process of deciding the sequence of timing is moot, right?

so acording to this viewtopic.php?f=59&t=84015 i really think that OAS can be "negated" with deeds and Words or The thirving light, here we go:

Title Only Actions Speak Text Reaction: After an action is announced: Negate all Honor gains until after the action's resolution. At that time if this negated any gains, negate all Honor gains until the end of this phase and draw a card. Battle: Choose your performing unbowed Personality: Bow a target enemy card with lower Force and without attachments. Bow its unit if your Personality has 7 or more base Force.

Title Deeds and Words Text Bow this holding: Produce 2 Gold. Reaction: Before a player gains or loses Honor during the Action Phase, destroy this card: Reduce the gain or loss to 0.

Title The Thriving Light Text Political • Unique Reaction: Before an action's resolution: Until that resolution ends, reduce the next Honor gain or loss by 5 (minimum zero). Battle: Destroy a target Terrain. Limited: Destroy a target Region. Open: Bow a target attachment.

1- i announce Impromptu duel (here is the tempo for OAS reaction) 2- my opponente refuse, so i gain 4 honor 3- due to my honor gain, since im the active player i have the first reaction, so i negate the gain with Deesds and Words OR TTL 4- since i dont gained honor, OAS dont have any honor gain to negate and its efects fails.

thats what i understand when i read those cards, so i'm able to gain more honor in my action phase, am i right ?

follow up to this thread viewtopic.php?f=59&t=84999&p=1120685&hilit=only+actions+speak#p1120685

if i play something to cause an honor gain. someone else plays OAS on me with the wording of OAS it seems that i would be able to use the thriving light to bring the honor gain down to zero of my own effect and then when OAS checks to see if there was any honor to negate it doesnt find any *since its already been reduced to zero* thus it doesnt trigger the lasting effect of no honor gain for the rest of that phase.

is my timing on how this works correct?

i guess to further clarify is the OAS honor negation from this line "Negate all Honor gains until after the action's resolution" mean that there is no honor to reduce with the thriving light.

i'm not talking about reducing the honor negation but reducing the honor gain i caused.

Only Actions Speak Reaction: After an action is announced: Negate all Honor gains until after the action's resolution. At that time if this negated any gains, negate all Honor gains until the end of this phase and draw a card.

The Thriving Light Reaction: Before an action's resolution: Until that resolution ends, reduce the next Honor gain or loss by 5 (minimum zero).

From this

"Only Actions Speak negates the honour gain so it triggers in step A; The Thriving Light reduces the honour gain, so it would trigger in step B, except that Only Actions Speak has already negated it."

However, the priorities are defined as: A. Apply any ongoing or continuous effects that negate, prevent, or substitute the occurrence that defines the trigger, making the occurrence not happen in the first place.If more than one of these effects conflict, the active player decides the order in which they happen. [...] B. Anything that is triggered at this point but is not a Reaction happens now. This includes triggered traits, delayed effects, indefinite conditional effects, triggered rulebook effects (such as losing Honor after a dishonourable Personality is destroyed). If more than one of these things conflict, the active player decides the order in which they happen. (Emphasis mine)

I fail to see why The Thriving Light would qualify as step B, since the reaction on The Thriving Light is an ongoing effect ("Until that resolution ends" seems like a duration clause) that would reduce a honor gain of 5 or less to 0. By long standing precedent, honor gains of 0 are not honor gains, thus The Thriving Light would make the honor gain not happen in the first place. So I think that The Thriving Light's reaction should be considered a "step A" effect (and thus allow the active player to choose the order in which Only Actions Speak and TTL apply).

On the other hand, Faint Praise and Kakita Okirou would indeed apply at step B since they create delayed effects, not continuous or ongoing effects, and Only Actions SPeak would beat them. But The Thriving Light is an entirely different beast.

From Subject: Only Actions Speak and The Thriving Light

Bayushi Mamoru wrote .... I fail to see why The Thriving Light would qualify as step B, since the reaction on The Thriving Light is an ongoing effect ("Until that resolution ends" seems like a duration clause) that would reduce a honor gain of 5 or less to 0. By long standing precedent, honor gains of 0 are not honor gains, thus The Thriving Light would make the honor gain not happen in the first place. So I think that The Thriving Light's reaction should be considered a "step A" effect (and thus allow the active player to choose the order in which Only Actions Speak and TTL apply). ....

There is a difference between the modification of an honor gain and it's negation, or replacement. The former happens in step B (TTL's reaction is one of these), the latter happens in step A (OAS's ongoing effect is one of these).

Timing rules A. Apply any ongoing or continuous effects that negate, prevent, or substitute the occurrence that defines the trigger. (Only Actions Speak negates, so belongs here, The Thriving Light doesn't do any of these things, so not here, not ever.) B. Anything that is triggered at this point but is not a Reaction happens now. (This is exactly what The Thriving Light is, a triggered effect that doesn't negate, prevent or substitute, and isn't a reaction.)

The rule for Honor is An Honor gain or loss of 0 points is not considered a gain or loss for things that check whether a gain or loss happened.

This in no way changes the type of effect that TTL is just by virtue of the fact that the honor gain or loss is less than 5. It is not negation.

From the Glossary Negation: Prevention of an effect. Different from "do not / will not."

All it means is that if TTL succeeds in reducing an honor gain or loss to zero, effects that would be triggered, by an honor gain or loss, after that point are not. Exchanging Civilities is an example of a card with an ability that might be impacted by this. In the case of this and The Thriving Light in effect together say for the Seppuku effect of Test of Sincerity there is a non-trivial timing conflict. If active player chooses TTL first then Exchanging Civilities fails. If active player chooses Exchanging Civilities first then some honor might potentially be gained by the seppuku player.

But none of this changes the fact that OAS (at step A) will always beat out anything (including TTL) that happens at step B.

Further, the timming section has this to say about effects that reduce a change...

The reduction of a change to a number to zero (for example, reducing a loss, gain, bonus or penalty) by a non-Reaction effect timed “before” the loss or gain has a special interaction with these timing rules. Such a reduction is not a negation or prevention, so it is not applied at step A. It is instead applied at step B. During step B, even if the reduction has taken the change to zero, other effects may be triggered by the loss or gain. Once step B is over, if the change is zero, it is not treated as a change of that type for triggering reactions in step C, or for triggers at later timing points.