L5R CCG Rules board, 26 March 2010 to 2 April 2010
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 26 March 2010
My opponent uses Impromptu Duel targetting my personality. I have The Thriving Light in hand. What I'd like to do is one of the following: 1) If my opponent uses Hamstrung's Focus Effect, I'd like to reduce that gain to 0. 2) If my opponent wins the duel, I'd like to reduce the 2 honor gain from Impromptu Duel to 0. 3) If my opponent neither wins the duel nor focuses Hamstrung, I would like to have not played my Thriving Light.
So the question is, what is the timing of playing The Thriving Light for options 1 and 2? 1) If I want to reduce the honor from Hamstrung's Focus Effect, when do I play The Thriving Light? 2) If I want to reduce the honor gain for Impromptu Duel (the 2 honor for winning the duel), can I play that after the outcome of the duel is decided, or is that too late? Do I have to play it before the duel starts?
Alex Jones (rules official), 26 March 2010
My opponent uses Impromptu Duel targetting my personality. I have The Thriving Light in hand. What I'd like to do is one of the following: 1) If my opponent uses Hamstrung's Focus Effect, I'd like to reduce that gain to 0. 2) If my opponent wins the duel, I'd like to reduce the 2 honor gain from Impromptu Duel to 0. 3) If my opponent neither wins the duel nor focuses Hamstrung, I would like to have not played my Thriving Light.
So the question is, what is the timing of playing The Thriving Light for options 1 and 2? 1) If I want to reduce the honor from Hamstrung's Focus Effect, when do I play The Thriving Light? 2) If I want to reduce the honor gain for Impromptu Duel (the 2 honor for winning the duel), can I play that after the outcome of the duel is decided, or is that too late? Do I have to play it before the duel starts?
You cannot choose the timing for The Thriving Light: it can only be played "Before an action's resolution". If you play it, you cannot choose which honour gain or loss will be reduced. It will reduce the first honour gain or loss by 5 and no other.
If your opponent uses Hamstrung's Focus Effect to try to gain honour (and no other gain or loss has occured first), The Thriving Light will reduce that gain to zero. If your opponent wins the duel, and would gain 2 honour from doing so (and no other gain or loss has occured first), The Thriving Light will reduce that gain to zero. If your opponent neither wins the duel nor focuses Hamstrung, your The Thriving Light will probably have been wasted.
according to AkodoGilador, The Thriving Light will stop Hamstrung's effects. But Focus effects are not actions so how can Thriving Light be used to stop it? Is Hamstrung's honor gain effect considered part of the duels effects during resolution?
according to AkodoGilador, The Thriving Light will stop Hamstrung's effects. But Focus effects are not actions so how can Thriving Light be used to stop it? Is Hamstrung's honor gain effect considered part of the duels effects during resolution?
The Thriving Light's Reaction isn't triggered by a gain or loss of honour: it's triggered by an action's resolution being about to happen. Furthermore, the honour loss or negate reduced by The Thriving Light is not required to have come from the action it's triggering off, merely that it occurs during the resolution of that action.
The Thriving Light's Reaction will reduce the first gain or loss during that resolution which can be of any type, including an honour gain or loss from that action, from a rulebook effect (for example an honour loss due to a Personality dying dishonourably) or from a trait (which includes Focus Effects). It won't reduce an honour loss or gain from a delayed effect, such as the 5 honour loss from Ambush, since that occurs after the Ambush action's resolution.
The only question I have is in regards to timing. The Thriving Light relevant text is Reaction: Before an action's resolution: Until that resolution ends, reduce the next Honor gain or loss by 5 (minimum zero).
When exactly does a Duel action resolve? If someone plays Steel on Steel in a battle may I wait until after Focus effects are revealed but before they resolve to play The Thriving Light as Steel on Steel hasn't resolved yet?
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 29 March 2010
Regarding this viewtopic.php?f=59&t=82601
The only question I have is in regards to timing. The Thriving Light relevant text is Reaction: Before an action's resolution: Until that resolution ends, reduce the next Honor gain or loss by 5 (minimum zero).
When exactly does a Duel action resolve? If someone plays Steel on Steel in a battle may I wait until after Focus effects are revealed but before they resolve to play The Thriving Light as Steel on Steel hasn't resolved yet?
An action begins resolving in its Resolution Step.
This is the step that comes after Announcing it, making Required Targeting, and Paying Costs and where its effect begin being applied. In the case of Steel on Steel, its first effect is the issuing of the challenge. So, just before that is when you would React with The Thriving Light.
Since Focus Effects aren't actions, their resolution (which occurs during the resolution of Steel on Steel) wouldn't trigger The Thriving Light
akodogilador said "The Thriving Light's Reaction will reduce the first gain or loss during that resolution which can be of any type, including an honour gain or loss from that action, from a rulebook effect (for example an honour loss due to a Personality dying dishonourably) or from a trait (which includes Focus Effects)." this means that it will stop honor gain from hamstrung.
then MacBeth2001 said "Since Focus Effects aren't actions, their resolution (which occurs during the resolution of Steel on Steel) wouldn't trigger The Thriving Light." this means that hamstrung's honor gain would go through.
which one is the right answer?
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 29 March 2010
MacBeth2001 said "Since Focus Effects aren't actions, their resolution (which occurs during the resolution of Steel on Steel) wouldn't trigger The Thriving Light." this means that hamstrung's honor gain would go through.
No, that's not what my statement means. Alex is correct, and my post has no bearing upon his.
The answer I gave was in response to being asked if a player could wait until Focus Effects began resolving to play The Thriving Light's Reaction. I was only saying that a Focus Effect's resolution is not a valid trigger to play The Thriving Light.
To be clear, The Thriving Light must be played immediately before the challenge is issued, before the opponent chooses to accept or refuse, correct? So, there is no way to wait and see if my opponent focuses hamstrung or wins the duel first, I must play the Thriving Light before I know if either of those things are going to happen, right?
Brook Cunningham (rules official), 2 April 2010
To be clear, The Thriving Light must be played immediately before the challenge is issued, before the opponent chooses to accept or refuse, correct?
In a case where the challenge being issued is the action's first effect, that is correct. Thriving Light must be played before Resolution, where an action's effects begin to resolve.
So, there is no way to wait and see if my opponent focuses hamstrung or wins the duel first, I must play the Thriving Light before I know if either of those things are going to happen, right?