Shiba Raiden and Shinjo's Guidance

L5R CCG Rules board, 11 February 2010 to 15 February 2010

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 11 February 2010

Hi

A Unicorn Clan player, with Shinjo's Guidance in play, attacks with Shinjo Ki-Chang and Moto Chuluun the province where my only Shiba Raiden in play was assigned to defend previously. What happens if i use, as my first defender action (no Sneak Attack), the Battle ability of Shiba Raiden targeting Shinjo Ki-Chang (because his force is now 5 because he is opposed) in order to bow him, and the other player reacts when i target Shinjo Ki-Chang using the reaction of Shinjo's Guidance to target Moto Chuluun. When the other player reacts when i target Shinjo Ki-Chang and discards Shinjo's Guidance, both personalities no longer have +1F while opposed, so i'm not sure if the other player has to bow one of his personalities.

Thanks

A player, 12 February 2010

i'm not sure if the other player has to bow one of his personalities.

No, nobody bows.

You announce that you are taking Shiba Raiden's Battle action and that you want to target Shinjo Ki-Chang, who is a legal target thanks to Shinjo's Guidance's trait. Before the actual targeting takes place, your opponent uses this Celestial's Reaction, that is played like any other action: he announces it in good faith, he chooses the required targets (none), he pays the cost of discarding Shinjo's Guidance and he resolves it. Now he can make the target of your Battle action become any other one of his legal Personalities but none is legal: each of them has a Force equal to his own base Force now that the Celestial is no longer in play. However, because Shinjo Ki-Chang is no longer a legal target too and this happens before the actual targeting takes place, Shiba Raiden's action fails (see below).

Interference with required targeting: "From the point when an action is announced in good faith, to the point when a particular required targeting occurs (including reactions "when X would target"), if anything interferes so that a piece of required targeting can no longer be met, the action fails. Further targeting does not take place, its costs are ignored, and its effects do not happen. The action is still considered taken and ended, but not resolved, and the ability that created it is considered used. If the action was on a Strategy card, the card is discarded normally."

A player, 15 February 2010

I'm trying to understand something about this ruling.

Shinjo's Guidance Reaction: When another player's Battle action would target one of your Unicorn Clan Personalities, if you are a Unicorn Clan player, discard this card: Choose another one of your Personalities. The action targets him instead, if legal.

Shiba Raiden Battle: Bow or straighten a target Personality whose Force is different from his own base Force.

From the Comp rules...

Good Faith Rule: When an action is announced, the player must be able to target all required targets, meet all conditions of the action, and pay all mandatory costs, to the best of his or her knowledge.

Conditions Cards may have conditions that govern when they may or may not enter play. Likewise, actions may have conditions that govern when they may or may not be taken.

Some conditions refer back to past occurrences, such as, “If he has brought a Shadowlands card into play.” Most references to past occurrences will give a backwards-looking time period. Example: “If he has brought a Shadowlands card into play since your last End Phase.”

Such references that do not give a time period refer back to things that may have happened in the whole game up until now.

Wouldn't the selecting of the personality having to be a legal target for the original action be a condition for the action on Shinjo's Guidance to be announced in Good Faith? I am questioning what "meet all conditions of the action." relates to, just stuff in the constraints block (i.e. before any second colon)? If so, I would recommend that be in the section under conditions since it currently is not. If it is not, how can this ruling be correct, Shinjo's Guidance player announced an illegal action. No?

For the record, I agree with the ruling as I believe the intent is for conditions to be tied to the constraints block of an ability's text. I'm just pointing out that isn't in fact what the rules say. Also, if the ruling is true, then all reaction abilities that change targets are valid actions to be taken at any time. Meaning, I could play say 3 Imperial Commands off my opponent targeting one of my unique personalities, assuming that I have no other legal target for the action and 3 ways to produce 2 gold available, to potentially get out Ring of the Void let us say, Right?

Alex Jones (rules official), 15 February 2010

Hi

A Unicorn Clan player, with Shinjo's Guidance in play, attacks with Shinjo Ki-Chang and Moto Chuluun the province where my only Shiba Raiden in play was assigned to defend previously. What happens if i use, as my first defender action (no Sneak Attack), the Battle ability of Shiba Raiden targeting Shinjo Ki-Chang (because his force is now 5 because he is opposed) in order to bow him, and the other player reacts when i target Shinjo Ki-Chang using the reaction of Shinjo's Guidance to target Moto Chuluun. When the other player reacts when i target Shinjo Ki-Chang and discards Shinjo's Guidance, both personalities no longer have +1F while opposed, so i'm not sure if the other player has to bow one of his personalities.

Thanks

Wouldn't the selecting of the personality having to be a legal target for the original action be a condition for the action on Shinjo's Guidance to be announced in Good Faith? I am questioning what "meet all conditions of the action." relates to, just stuff in the constraints block (i.e. before any second colon)? If so, I would recommend that be in the section under conditions since it currently is not.

The definition of "Conditions" that you're after is under Card Features, Abilities: The constraints block has one or more of these elements: * Reaction trigger. ... * Conditions. Some conditions are restrictions, limiting when the action can be taken (such as, “If you control no Courtiers”). Others allow a player to take the action in spite of the game rules or other effects (such as, “Even if this card is bowed” overrides the rule that abilities on bowed cards cannot be used.) Sometimes a condition does both; “If this card is face-up in one of your Provinces” restricts the use of the ability, but also implicitly allows it to be used when the card is out of play, which overrides the basic rules. * Costs. ... * Targeting may appear in the constraints block.

There is no requirement that you can make choices described in the effects block if they are not part of required targeting. If, for example, you cannot choose another legal target for a target-changing Reaction, you may still announce that Reaction, as long as you only choose but don't target.