A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 8 December 2009
Sorry to ask another Shame Never Dies question but this one has my friend second guessing his own cards. Here is the situation.
I have a dishonored samurai. My friend plays Restoring Order. I pass my chance to play a reaction. My friend plays Shame Never Dies in reaction to my movement.
Shame Never Dies: Reaction: After the resolution of an action that moved home or destroyed a dishonorable Personality at a battlefield, target your Courtier, and bow him unless he is Scorpion Clan: The Personality's owner loses 3 Honor.
Restoring Order: Battle: Target your unbowed Magistrate Personality: Target an enemy Personality with Personal Honor lower than your Magistrate's Chi. Move the enemy Personality home. Bow him if he moved. Destroy him if he is dishonorable.
Now here come the questions. 1) When does he play the Shame Never Dies? Before Restoring Order resolves, after I move but before I die or after the entire action resolves? 2) If he plays it before I am destroyed can I then react to the honor lose from Shame Never Dies to Seppuku? Thus turning what would have been a 3 honor loss into a 1 honor loss and avoiding the honor loss from Restoring Order since im already dead when it try's to kill me?
The important part I think is his playing Shame Never Dies in reaction to my movement which happens before the destruction of Restoring Order. Regardless of who is right in this there is a second issue. Can my friend play Shame Never Dies in reaction to the destruction from Restoring Order? The action was played at the current battlefield but the destruction took place at my home.
A player, 8 December 2009
1) When does he play the Shame Never Dies?
When the card tells him to do so: "after the resolution of" Restoring Order, which happens after his dishonorable Personality moves and is destroyed by this action.
2) If he plays it before I am destroyed
He can't, for the same reason.
Can my friend play Shame Never Dies in reaction to the destruction from Restoring Order?
No, per card text: Shame Never Dies is played "after the resolution of" an action with a specific kind of effects (e.g. after Restoring Order resolves), not after a specific kind of effect is applied (e.g. after the movement or destruction of a dishonorable Personality at a battlefield).
A player, 15 December 2009
Regarding this topic: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=80463&p=1052315&hilit=shame+never+dies#p1052315
A local player has interpreted this ruling to mean that Shame Never dies cannot be player in response to any part of Restoring Order. Is this correct or can you play Shame Never Dies because the action moved a dishonored personality?
A player, 15 December 2009
Can the Seppuku reaction be take in response to Shame Never Dies? I don't think so, and I searched for it but did not see anything about it. Shame Never Dies does not target a personality other than your own and the enemy personality is not performing the action. . .correct? That's what is needed to Seppuku, yes?
Alex Jones (rules official), 15 December 2009
Sorry to ask another Shame Never Dies question but this one has my friend second guessing his own cards. Here is the situation.
I have a dishonored samurai. My friend plays Restoring Order. I pass my chance to play a reaction. My friend plays Shame Never Dies in reaction to my movement.
Shame Never Dies: Reaction: After the resolution of an action that moved home or destroyed a dishonorable Personality at a battlefield, target your Courtier, and bow him unless he is Scorpion Clan: The Personality's owner loses 3 Honor.
Restoring Order: Battle: Target your unbowed Magistrate Personality: Target an enemy Personality with Personal Honor lower than your Magistrate's Chi. Move the enemy Personality home. Bow him if he moved. Destroy him if he is dishonorable.
Now here come the questions. 1) When does he play the Shame Never Dies? Before Restoring Order resolves, after I move but before I die or after the entire action resolves? 2) If he plays it before I am destroyed can I then react to the honor lose from Shame Never Dies to Seppuku? Thus turning what would have been a 3 honor loss into a 1 honor loss and avoiding the honor loss from Restoring Order since im already dead when it try's to kill me?
The important part I think is his playing Shame Never Dies in reaction to my movement which happens before the destruction of Restoring Order. Regardless of who is right in this there is a second issue. Can my friend play Shame Never Dies in reaction to the destruction from Restoring Order? The action was played at the current battlefield but the destruction took place at my home.
Loïc has focused on what can't be done in this situation, I'll go through what does happen.
Player A has a dishonourable Samurai at a battlefield.
Player B plays Restoring Order. He targets his unbowed Magistrate and the dishonourable Samurai, in required targeting. In the action's resolution, the Samurai moves home, then because he moved, he bows and because he was dishonourable, he is destroyed.
After resolution, the timing trigger for Shame Never Dies occurs - "After the resolution of an action" - and the condition is also valid - "an action that moved home ... a dishonorable Personality at a battlefield." Player B plays Shame Never Dies, targeting (and maybe bowing) his Courtier. Player A loses 3 honour; he may not use the Seppuku Reaction, because Shame Never Dies does not target the moved or destroyed Personality. Furthermore, even if Shame Never Dies did target that Personality, taking the Reaction wouldn't help, since the Samurai is already dead, so the "If the seppuku destroyed him" clause would never trigger. Reaction: Any number of times per turn, before you lose Honor from an action that targeted or was performed by one of your Courtier or Samurai Personalities: He commits seppuku. If the seppuku destroyed him, reduce the Honor loss to one.