Channeling Jigoku's Essence: Questions on destruction.

L5R CCG Rules board, 11 September 2009

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 11 September 2009

I did a search and didn't see any other topics on this, but I have a few questions about:

Channeling Jigoku's Essence Maho • Kiho Limited: Bow your target Shugenja: Dishonor him and permanently give him Shadowlands. Set another of your target Personalities' Force to 10. Lose 4 Honor. Destroy the Personality before this turn ends. Gold 0 Focus 1

First: When I read the last sentence of that ability, I see the Destruction as being an effect that I control. Now, I'm not suggesting that I get to choose not to destroy my personality, but rather that so long as I initiate the effect before the turn ends, I can do so when I wish. Is this correct? Or is "before the turn ends" a phrase that dictates the effect automatically proceeds immediately before the turn ends? Could I (for reasons that may be more apparent after my second question) choose to destroy my Personality by this effect immediately after Permanently setting the target's Force to 10 and losing my 4 honor? Or do I have to wait until immediately before the turn ends?

Second: Suppose I don't want to rely on Samurai and Will, and just want to keep my targeted Personality alive with that Force set to 10. I'm not 100% clear on some of the timing rules, so I have two cards in mind that I believe might stop the destruction effect and would like clarification as to whether I'm right:

1) Hand of the Jade Dragon Jade • Unique Attaches to Matsu Benika paying 2 less Gold. This Personality has Hero. Reaction: Before an action's resolution: Negate this Personality's destruction from the action's effects. Forceval +3 Chi +0 Gold 6 Focus 4

This is not the optimal card to use with CJE (since it's Force bonus will make setting the Personalities Force a smaller adjustment), but it does have a prevention effect. Now lets break this down to account for my first question: If I can destroy my personality immediately, rather than waiting for the moment before my turn ends, I believe Hand of Jade will prevent the destruction immediately. If the destruction occurs in the moments before the current turn ends, I believe Hand of Jade will still prevent the personality's destruction because I activate the Reaction directly in response to CJE, and the language of Hand of Jade indicates that the destruction effects of CJE will be negated: it doesn't specify the time at which the negation occurs. So please clarify if that's wishful thinking on my part.

2) Strength of the Bamboo Heroic Reaction: After an action targets your Hero Personality: Negate his destruction from the action's effects. Give him +1F. Gold 0 Focus 2 This is the same effect as Hand of Jade, except that it requires a Hero already be in the mix. Is there any reason that this would work differently?

Thanks

A player, 11 September 2009

Is this correct? Or is "before the turn ends" a phrase that dictates the effect automatically proceeds immediately before the turn ends?

The latter. Your Personality whose Force was set to 10 will be destroyed immediately before the turn ends, not whenever you want between the activation of this effect and the end of this turn.

An effect that is written "[do X] after/before/when [Y]" is a delayed effect that will take place after/before/when [Y] and that will [do X] at that time. You do not control when it will be applied, although the active player decide the order in which multiple delayed effects with exactly the same trigger will apply. For more information, read Delayed Effects and Timing.

Second: Suppose I don't want to rely on Samurai and Will, and just want to keep my targeted Personality alive with that Force set to 10.

Aside: even if you manage to keep him alive forever, the Force bonus or penalty that sets your Personality's Force to 10 will end when your turn ends as all ongoing effects do when they have no stated duration.

If the destruction occurs in the moments before the current turn ends, I believe Hand of Jade will still prevent the personality's destruction

Indeed, the effect from your Hand of the Jade Dragon will negate your Personality's destruction before the turn ends if you used its Reaction before the resolution of your Channeling Jigoku's Essence. For more information, see Duration and scope of negation effects.

Is there any reason that [Strength of the Bamboo] would work differently?

No, there is no reason that I can think of. Strength of the Bamboo will negate your Personality's destruction if you took its Reaction after your Channeling Jigoku's Essence targeted your Hero Personality.