Ritual of summoning and negative force bonus

There is some question over at viewtopic.php?f=244&t=77181 about what happens when you give a personality a negative force bonus then raise their for with ritual of summoning. Some people seem to think that you can give a personality more negative bonus then their force, effectively giving someone -12 force. According to the rule book force can not be lowered past 0 so any force penalty beyond was is required to set the personalities force to 0 would be negated.

Example:

Houhou is given a -4 force penalty with Asako Serizawa and his force now becomes 0 with a -2 force penalty. Asako Serizawa tries to give Houhou another -4 but because his force is currently 0 it has not effect. Houhou casts Ritual of Summoning and permanently gets a +5 force bonus. At the end of turn the -2 force penalty goes away setting his permanent force to 7.

http://rules.l5r.com/Card_features#Maxi ... _penalties: "To get a stat's current value at any given time, do steps A through C, below:

"A: Apply all current bonuses and penalties." Also note section below -- setting a stat to a value is just a bonus or penalty.

"B: If the total is below 0, treat it as 0. (Does not apply to Family Honor, Honor Requirements, and stats with a + or – sign such as an Item’s Force and Chi stats.)

"C: If the total is less than a minimum or more than a maximum, treat it as the minimum or maximum."

In this topic - http://alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=77744

Ritual of Summoning does not give a permanent 5 force bonus, Ritual of Summoning permanently SETS the force to 5. Can you explain why Houhou is getting a permanent 7 force bonus from it?

Thanks in advance,

HN

Edited Title for Clarity -Genji

Permanently Setting a stat to a value implies that a permanent force bonus or force penalty is given to get to that value.

In the case of a Houhou that has been affected by Asako Serizawa's ability, the permanent force bonus given by Ritual of Summoning is 7. (2-4+7=5).

When Serizawa's force penalty ends, the permanent force bonus remains, putting Houhou at 9 Force.

This means that "set equal to 5" really is shorthand for "calculate the bonus required currently to reach 5, apply that bonus permanently"?

Ritual of Summoning is permanent because its card text says so, not because there is a general rule that setting stats to a value is permanent. Otherwise, yes.

(S)ince Ritual calculates its needs once and permanently applies, I am free to give Hou Hou -F going forward and it doesn't recalculate its needed bonus to overcome them?

Yes.

Would Shameful Injury... negate the force bonus(?)

Yes.

(I)f I manage to kill Hou Hou, later they can use it's ability to bring it back and it will include the changes set for by the Ritual of Summoning due to it never being considered face down, from in play to dead to in play again?

Yes.

So with 3 of the Asako Serizawa in play you could make a Hou Hou up to 15F, which would be able to return from death with the same force bonus?

Yes.

Is there a limit to how many penalties you could stack prior to using the Ritual to bump it as high as possible once they fade?

The rules generally don't set limits on how big bonuses can be.

In regards to viewtopic.php?f=59&t=77744

Why does "Setting a stat to a value" look for anything other than the current value of the stat? This, at least to me, goes against the blind cards philosophy completely.

In the following example:

1. Houhou is given a -4 force penalty with Asako Serizawa. 2. Houhou casts Ritual of Summoning. 3. Turn ends, and -4 force penalty from Asako Serizawa expires.

Why does Ritual of Summoning see Houhou's force as anything but 0? Should't it be as follows:

1. Houhou is given a -4 force penalty with Asako Serizawa.

---Houhou now has a -4F penalty until end of turn, and 0 force.

2. Houhou casts Ritual of Summoning.

---Ritual of Summoning checks Houhou's force. It's zero. It gives Houhou a permanent +5F bonus. Houhou now has a -4F penalty and a +5F bonus, therefore has 1 force.

3. Turn ends, -4F penalty goes away, Houhou has a +5F bonus, for a total 7F.

Back to my question - Why does Ritual of Summoning care for anything other than Houhou's current force?

~Andrew

But Ritual of Summoning doesn't say, "Give the Shugenja +5f," it says, "Set the Shugenja's force to 5." The Rules say this means, give the Personality a force bonus or penalty sufficient to make his force 5.

In the case of a Houhou with a -4f penalty, a bonus of +7f is required to make Houhou's force 5.

See Setting stats to a value: "To set a stat to a value, give an appropriate bonus or penalty."