Hida Kuon (Experienced 6): The compilation

Scenario Battle: I have X number of personalities at the battlefield and my opponent has Hida Kuon xp6, who is alone and unbowed, and I have not currently targeted Kuon with any actions. Opponent plays an action which targets one of my personalities and I react with Incredible Resilience. What happens? Since he chooses who to bow and I don't target Kuon with Resilience, does Kuon bow or does it not happen per Kuon's trait?

Incredible Resilience Reaction: After the resolution of an enemy player's Battle action that targeted one of your Personalities: The player chooses and bows one of his unbowed Personalities at the current battlefield.

Hida Kuon (Experienced 6) If Kuon is the only Personality in his army, before the resolution of the enemy leader's first action that targeted Kuon this battle: Its effects do not happen. Battle: Even if Kuon is bowed, if any enemy units are at the current battlefield: Move your target Personality there. If he moved, straighten him.

Thank you for your time.

Hida Kuon If Kuon is the only Personality in his army, before the resolution of the enemy leader's first action that targeted Kuon this battle: Its effects do not happen.

Failure of Courage Battle: If you are the Defender: The enemy leader targets an unbowed Personality in his army. Move him home. Negate his movement to battlefields this turn.

If I used Failure of Courage on Hida Kuon as my first Battle action, would Kuon move home? I wasn't sure if Kuon's elimination of effects happened if he was targeted by his Controller or not.

Unicorn War dogs: Battle: If you control a Human Unicorn Clan Personality in this army: Give Unicorn War Dogs +2F. You may target and bow an enemy Follower or Personality without Followers. Hida Kuon xp 6: If Kuon is the only Personality in his army, before the resolution of the enemy leader's first action that targeted Kuon this battle: Its effects do not happen.

If player A has unicorn war dogs and 1 other Human unicorn in his army, and uses the dogs ability against Hida Kuon xp6 do the War Dogs still recieve +2F? I know that when individual effects of a card are negated you do not negate the other effects, But Kuon doesn't negate.

Regarding this Unicorn Wardog targeting being optional (you may), so as long as you don't target Kuon, he doesn't stop anything right?

9. Explicit Negation. In CE rules, all negation is explicitly stated with the word “negate.” There are only two levels of prevention: negation, and “do not/will not,” which is used to prevent negation and other effects in a more definitive way. "Can not/cannot" is not used in card text. (http://rules.l5r.com/Main_changes_in_Rules)

HIDA KUON Crab Clan • Clan Champion • Samurai • Berserker • Commander • Hero • Experienced 6 • Loyal • Unique If Kuon is the only Personality in his army, before the resolution of the enemy leader’s first action that targeted Kuon this battle: Its effects do not happen. Battle: Even if Kuon is bowed, if any enemy units are at the current battlefield: Move your target Personality there. If he moved, straighten him.

TOSHI RANBO City • Imperial • Unique During battles at this province's battlefield, effects of Political actions will not be negated. After Cavalry Maneuvers end: Create and attach a 1F Guard Follower to each honorable, opposed Samurai or Shugenja Personality defending at this province's battlefield.

If Kuon is alone at a battlefield in a province that contains Toshi Ranbo: what will happen if the enemy leader’s first action that targets Kuon during this battle is Political? will its effects occur?

Thanks in advance.

If Kuon is alone at a battlefield in a province that contains Toshi Ranbo: what will happen if the enemy leader’s first action that targets Kuon during this battle is Political?

If this Political action targets Hida Kuon XP6 before its resolution, its effects do not happen because of Kuon's trait. This is not negation so Toshi Ranbo's trait does not matter.

Still trying to figure out ways to get rid of T2 Kuon...

Flanked by Nightmares says: Battle: If your current army has more units than the current enemy army, bow your target Shadowlands Personality: The enemy leader targets and destroys a Personality in his current army.

As the enemy leader would target Kuon during the resolution of the action, Hida Kuon's (XP6) trait wouldn't trigger. Am I right in this?

The question was just asked about kuon xp 6's trait and how it apparently doesn't work with flanked by nightmares: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=77227

In a previous question with failure of courage it was said that Kuon's trait would trigger: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=77143&p=1013308&hilit=hida+kuon#p1013308

can you please tell me if both answers were correct?

If both answers are correct, then what is the difference in the situation that makes Kuon's trait trigger/not trigger?

Thanks John

I have a follow up question concerning this thread: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=77227 on how flanked by nightmares is playable through kuon's ability. Let's say I play a flanked by nightmares on Hida Kuon who is alone and my Crab opponent plays an anti kill effect on my flanked by nightmares and his Kuon is still alive (see Strength of the Bamboo, Does not die so easily!, will). At this point is Kuon's trait still active, or has the flanked by nightmares targetting (even if death is negated) counted as the first action. So when I play another action to target him his ability no longer works?

Lots of confusion re: Hida Kuon's trait.

Unicorn War Dogs Battle: If you control a Human Unicorn Clan Personality in this army: Give Unicorn War Dogs +2F. You may target and bow an enemy Follower or Personality without Followers.

Hida Kuon XP6 If Kuon is the only Personality in his army, before the resolution of the enemy leader's first action that targeted Kuon this battle: Its effects do not happen.

Following up this thread this thread and particularly these two threads.

Hida Kuon XP6 will not negate Failure of Courage because the targetting happens after Hida Kuon's trait triggers. Hida Kuon XP6 will not negate Flanked by Nightmares because the targetting happens after Hida Kuon's trait triggers.

My reading of the required targetting rules is a bit unclear (I understand that the comprehensive rules are still under construction, but "How does your deck deal with Kuon 6" is quite an important factor in deck construction, so it's important to know):-

At what stage do Unicorn War Dogs target? Specifically, if I target Kuon does his trait have a chance to trigger? Will he bow?

Assuming Hida Kuon (Experienced 6) is the only Personality in his army and has no attached Follower...

At what stage do Unicorn War Dogs target?

While its action is resolving, after it gains +2F, if you choose to use its second effect.

Specifically, if I target Kuon does his trait have a chance to trigger?

No it is too late because the action has already begun to resolve whereas Kuon's trait triggers before an action's resolution. However you are taking an action that targeted Kuon, so his trait will never trigger later during this battle.

Will he bow?

Yes.

Kinda new here. So please excuse any mistakes on my part(if any).

Kuon is the only personality in my attacking army. My friend defends with a tattoed monk and uses Hand of Osano Wo. Does the Ranged 3 does not happen? Or because it is conditional, it will still push through?

References:

Hand of Osano-Wo

Battle: Target your unbowed Monk, and bow him if he is not Tattooed: Destroy a target enemy attachment. If its Personality now has no Followers, you may make a Ranged 3 Attack targeting him.

Hida Kuon Exp. 6

If Kuon is the only Personality in his army, before the resolution of the enemy leader's first action that targeted Kuon this battle: Its effects do not happen. Battle: Even if Kuon is bowed, if any enemy units are at the current battlefield: Move your target Personality there. If he moved, straighten him.

Thanks for the info.

[Mod edit: Thread title. -ZF]

follow up to this thread: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=77323

assuming i made the optional ranged attack against kuon

when i play my next action and target kuon is this

a) the first action targeting kuon or b) not the first action targeting kuon

regarding his trait?

thanks in advance

Pardon me for being thoroughly confused, but I'm really not sure how the rulings for Unicorn War Dogs, Failure of Courage, and Flanked by Nightmares bypass Kuon's trait.

After all, Flanked by Nightmares has a cost/condition in the constraints block and an effect that targets and kills in the effects block. Steel on Steel has a cost/condition in the constraints block and an effect that targets and kills in the effects block. One has the action taker target and one has the opponent target, but Kuon doesn't care, only that he was targeted so that doesn't matter. What am I missing in the timing difference?

Please could someone explain step by step for me so I can differentiate on all actions without having to consult here for each one.

Thanks,

More Kuon xp6 questions.

Kuon is at a battlefield with another personality. Kuon is targeted by an action owned by my opponent. The other personality with Kuon subsequently goes home. Does Kuon's trait become active since he is now the only personality in the army? Basically, does his trait "remember" that he was previously targeted even though it wasn't previously active? Or does Kuon's trait only care about the first point that it becomes active, and after he is alone it starts recognizing actions.

Hi there.

Following up this thread. Emphasis is for readability because I've posted a bit of a wall of text.

"They are doing so for different reasons.

Kuon's trait kicks in for targeting (A) done by the action's controller (B) during in the targeting step when mandatory targeting occurs. (Strictly speaking, Kuon's trait looks for whether he's been targeted right after costs have been paid, but it's very rare indeed that he'll have been targeted as part of cost payment.)

For both Flanked by Nightmares and Failure of Courage, the targeting is not done by the action's controller, so it doesn't meet (A) above."

I think that the ruling above is confusing, and would like to clarify somthing.

Hida Kuon XP6: "If Kuon is the only Personality in his army, before the resolution of the enemy leader's first action that targeted Kuon this battle: Its effects do not happen."

Flanked by Nightmares: "If your current army has more units than the current enemy army, bow your target Shadowlands Personality: The enemy leader targets and destroys a Personality in his current army."

Failure of Courage: "If you are the Defender: The enemy leader targets an unbowed Personality in his army. Move him home. Negate his movement to battlefields this turn."

Unicorn Wardogs: "If you control a Human Unicorn Clan Personality in this army: Give Unicorn War Dogs +2F. You may target and bow an enemy Follower or Personality without Followers."

You say "(A) done by the action's controller (B) during in the targeting step when mandatory targeting occurs". However, only B really applies, correct? Targeting done by a player other than the controller of an action is never "Required Targeting" and so never occurs during the targeting step when mandatory targeting occurs? (i.e. an action which does not fulfil A necessarily also does not fulfil B). While the distinction isn't important for play implications, I think it is important for helping TOs and players to understand the working behind this ruling.

In addition (for reference) I believe the following cards also "punch through" Hida Kuon's trait (and additionally mean that no further actions can fulfil the conditions of his trigger):-

Bayushi Paneki: "Bow a target Personality. Destroy him if he is dishonorable. You may target and dishonor a Personality." can dishonour a Kuon with a dishonourable friend. (although obviously in this scenario you could also choose to bow Kuon directly since at the point where you choose a target for the first effect, he's not the only unit in his army)

Darkness Unleashed: "Target your unbowed Monk: Ranged Attack with strength equal to his entering-play Honor loss. You may target an enemy Personality or Follower and give him a Force penalty equal to your Monk's Chi." can target a ranged attack at a follower attached to a solo Kuon, and then give him a force penalty.

Honor and Steel: "Give your target Paragon +1F for each Bushido Virtue in your discard pile. You may target an enemy Personality and give him –1F for each Dark Virtue in his controller’s discard pile. Gain 1 Honor."

Matsu Satsune: "Discard a card: Straighten a target unit in Satsune's army. If you discarded a Bushido Virtue, you may target and bow an enemy Follower or Personality without attachments." can bow a Kuon with no attachments.

Threat of Execution: "Target your unbowed Magistrate, and bow him if he is not Crane Clan: Bow a target Personality with lower Personal Honor than your Magistrate's Chi. You may target and bow a dishonorable Personality." can bow your own target personality (possibly including the performing magistrate), then bow a dishonourable Kuon. (Hax!)

Weigh the Cost: "Move your target Samurai Personality home: Bow him. Raise or lower the current battlefield’s province’s strength by 2. You may target an enemy Personality and give him -3F."

(In addition to these, and the cards above - failure of courage, flanked by nightmares, unicorn wardogs - Hand of Osano Wo has already been mentioned earlier in the thread)

Is that all correct?

There are a bunch more that aren't CE legal, involve conditions that to my knowledge aren't possible to fulfil in CE*, or are really janky (e.g. I think that you could straighten an enemy Kuon with The Water Dragon's Favor to eat his trait).

* Give Kuon a 2C penalty with Bayushi Kachiko (or with Bayushi Kurumi xp). Play "Kolat Master" and announce Kuon as the target. Kolat Master was MRP'd to give target the Kolat trait, which Kuon will gain even though the "gain control" effect fails due to Kuon's Loyal trait (as per Daigotsu XP3 vs CE clan champions). The Crab player now assigns Hida Kuon to attack me, along with another unit which has less force than my Moto Chen XP3. I defend with Chen, announce Chen's action targeting the Crab player's second unit. It is trampled. I can then target and destroy** the Kolat Kuon without triggering his trait, then do a little dance and maybe get the "worst way to deal with Kuon XP6" award.

** except obviously the Crab then reacts with some destruction negation then stomps Chen's face

Unexpected Intimidation Battle: Bow your target Personality: Move a target enemy Personality home. If this did not move him, bow him. If this did not bow him, destroy him. If this did not destroy him, remove him from the game.

Hida Kuon(xp6) If Kuon is the only Personality in his army, before the resolution of the enemy leader's first action that targeted Kuon this battle: Its effects do not happen. Battle: Even if Kuon is bowed, if any enemy units are at the current battlefield: Move your target Personality there. If he moved, straighten him.

would Kuon's trait be able to overcome Unexpected Intimidation?

[Mod edit: Formatting removed. Take it easy on the special effects. Thanks! -ZF]

Zen, regarding your response, all I'm wondering is why Kuon's trait sees actions that target him while he is not alone when the first thing his trait says is "if Kuon is alone,..." I'm thinking of this ruling: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=66804&p=858339&hilit=flanking#p858339 regarding flanking action's ability to be played, so doesn't the trait fail to see the action because you don't meet the conditions for the trait? Then, his trait cannot be announced because you don't meet the conditions? In the flanking action case, you can't legally announce flanking action because of something in the constraints block, and it seems like Kuon's trait is similar: Kuon is not alone, therefore his trait cannot trigger, but for some reason it still remembers that Kuon was targeted previously? This is very confusing to me.

EDIT: To make my question clearer,it seems like kuon's trait shouldn't occur like "kuon gets targeted, his trait triggers, and the trait doesn't take effect," and should be more like "kuon's trait isn't active yet and doesn't look for an action that targets him period," because, as I read it, being alone is a contraint for triggering his trait.

I'm facing Hida Kuon XP6, alone. I use one of the actions that have been ruled not to trigger his trait because they target him during resolution of the action. For this case, let's say Failure of Courage. Kuon is sent home, but then he comes back using his own action.

Will any subsequent action I play, targeting him, trigger his trait? Or does the trait ignore the fact that my Failure of Courage targeted him, though late for it to trigger? Does "first" mean any action that targeted him, timely for the trait or not; or does it mean only the first action that would trigger the trait?

Please use the seach function before posting new questions.

Please read this compilation about Hida Kuon XP6 before posting new questions about him.

Read Zen's answer above.