Insight and Changing Paths

L5R CCG Rules board, 27 May 2009 to 23 June 2009

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 27 May 2009

Insight reads:

Dark Virtue Battle: Target one of your Samurai: Look at the top 3 cards of any Fate deck. If any are Action cards or Rings, you may play one of them for an additional Battle Action on it. You may rearrange the order of the remaining cards you looked at.

Changing Paths reads:

Kiho Battle/Open: Target your unbowed Shugenja or Monk: Name a Ring. The next time this turn you would trigger its base trait that would put it into play from your hand, search your discard pile, then Fate deck, for that Ring. Show it. Put it into your hand. (You then have a chance to play it by its own text.)

Ok, assume I played Changing Paths earlier in the turn and named "Ring of Water". Later, during a battle, I play three battle actions (successfully), and the fourth one is Insight (on my fate deck), triggering the effect of Changing Paths. Now, what happens exactly with the action card I wanted to play with Insight?

The problem is: Changing Paths will make me search my deck for Ring of Water, and then the rulebook will tell me to shuffle the deck. As that should happen before playing the additional action (according to rules on additional actions), that could possibly make me shuffle the deck before I play the card by the effect of Insight. Is that the case? Or is the action card (or ring) set aside, out of the deck (perhaps in its resolution area?), then I search the deck and shuffle (Changing Paths + rulebook effect), and now the action card resolves?

In other words: at which point is created the resolution area for the action card? While the Insight is still resolving, or later when the ability begins to resolve? Would the rule of shuffling the deck after searching for a card interfere with the resolution of the action card?

Dan Jacobson (rules official), 27 May 2009

Insight reads:

Dark Virtue Battle: Target one of your Samurai: Look at the top 3 cards of any Fate deck. If any are Action cards or Rings, you may play one of them for an additional Battle Action on it. You may rearrange the order of the remaining cards you looked at.

Changing Paths reads:

Kiho Battle/Open: Target your unbowed Shugenja or Monk: Name a Ring. The next time this turn you would trigger its base trait that would put it into play from your hand, search your discard pile, then Fate deck, for that Ring. Show it. Put it into your hand. (You then have a chance to play it by its own text.)

Ok, assume I played Changing Paths earlier in the turn and named "Ring of Water". Later, during a battle, I play three battle actions (successfully), and the fourth one is Insight (on my fate deck), triggering the effect of Changing Paths. Now, what happens exactly with the action card I wanted to play with Insight?

The problem is: Changing Paths will make me search my deck for Ring of Water, and then the rulebook will tell me to shuffle the deck. As that should happen before playing the additional action (according to rules on additional actions), that could possibly make me shuffle the deck before I play the card by the effect of Insight. Is that the case? Or is the action card (or ring) set aside, out of the deck (perhaps in its resolution area?), then I search the deck and shuffle (Changing Paths + rulebook effect), and now the action card resolves?

In other words: at which point is created the resolution area for the action card? While the Insight is still resolving, or later when the ability begins to resolve? Would the rule of shuffling the deck after searching for a card interfere with the resolution of the action card?

Under Discussion.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 23 June 2009

Thank you for your patience.

This quandary may lead to changes in the Tracking Rule come CE.

However, for now, without issuing any errata or play notes, the best that we can say is that this is an instance that does require judge intervention, if all rules are being followed to the letter. Such a judge would need to verify the correct card, and actually retrieve it from the deck post-shuffling (due to searching for the Ring of Water), because such retrieval would not technically trigger another shuffle.

In casual play, the card to be played should simply be set aside before shuffling (and I suspect many players will find this a convenient solution in competitive play as well). If for whatever reason the card cannot be played, it gets shuffled back in, too.