Enlightened Tutor, Kakita Kaisei (Costs to refuse)

L5R CCG Rules board, 2 April 2009 to 4 April 2009

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 2 April 2009

Can a personality with enlightened tutor refuse a challenge even if it cannot (or chooses not to) pay the cost of refusing (i.e. tagetting a dishonored personality with kaisei's ability)?

(This is a variation of a question I asked about Kuro Sensei here)

Relevant Texts

Enlightened Tutor This Personality may refuse any challenges without penalty while this Follower is attached, including Challenges that may not be refused.

Kakita Kaisei Crane Clan Samurai • Courtier • Duelist • Magistrate Reaction: After Kaisei issues a challenge: Target a Personality controlled by the challenged player. Refusing the challenge has the additional cost of Dishonoring the target. (If it already has the cost of Dishonoring that target, the challenge may not be refused.)

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 2 April 2009

Can a personality with enlightened tutor refuse a challenge even if it cannot (or chooses not to) pay the cost of refusing (i.e. tagetting a dishonored personality with kaisei's ability)?

No.

Enlightened Tutor This Personality may refuse any challenges without penalty while this Follower is attached, including Challenges that may not be refused.

Enlightened Tutor is cumbersomely doing two things here. It is causing the failure of any penalties associated with refusal of any challenges, and it is also allowing the refusal of challenges that are unrefusable (also, read: "may not be refused" or that don't say they may be refused).

In neither case is it allowing you to ignore any costs for -- or conditions upon -- refusing.

A player, 3 April 2009

With regards to this: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=75054

Is there a ruling anywhere which defines what the word "penalty" is referring to? Apparently it merely refers to effects of the refusal, however within grammatical terms, wouldn't adding a cost onto the refusal also count as a "penalty"?

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 4 April 2009

Is there a ruling anywhere which defines what the word "penalty" is referring to? Apparently it merely refers to effects of the refusal, however within grammatical terms, wouldn't adding a cost onto the refusal also count as a "penalty"?

No to both questions.

In regards to the second:

http://rules.l5r.com/Older_Card_Rulings_K#Kuro_Sensei

In regards to the first:

I'll have to see how often "penalty for refusal" was used back in the day, and maybe write up a definition for the Legacy glossary.