L5R CCG Rules board, 12 February 2009 to 13 February 2009
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 12 February 2009
Searching the forum revealed this: Misdirection and Ring of Water but it is not quite what I wanted.
The main question is: Does Misdirection allow the player to choose which effect is used.
Example: I had two bowed attacking units (Bayushi Paneki -exp 4 and Bayushi Muhito) at a battlefield. I had Bayushi Saya unbowed at home. I played two front war, bowing Saya and targeting Paneki and Muhito with the hopes of moving them home.
My opponent reacted with Misdirection and chose to target Muhito and Saya. Fine so far. The problem is that he said that they needed to move to the current battlefield, thus moving Saya. I went along with this and now had Paneki, Muhito and Saya bowed at the battlefield, and lost the battle (and personalities).
In looking back at it, I believe that this was played incorrectly. Am I correct in assuming the he was able to choose the targets, but the action would have still moved Muhito (and Saya, because she was target) home?
This cost me the game, so I would like to learn the correct ruling in case it happens again. Thanks.
Two-Front War Political Battle: Bow one of your target Courtiers, even in your home: Target a number of your Personalities up to his Chi. Move them home, or move them to the current battlefield if any enemy units are there. Straighten the targets' units if this moved them into a defending army.
Misdirection: Political Gozoku Reaction: Before another player would choose targets for one of his action's effects during a battle, target one of your Courtier or Gozoku Personalities: You choose the targets instead.
Dan Jacobson (rules official), 12 February 2009
Searching the forum revealed this: Misdirection and Ring of Water but it is not quite what I wanted.
The main question is: Does Misdirection allow the player to choose which effect is used.
Example: I had two bowed attacking units (Bayushi Paneki -exp 4 and Bayushi Muhito) at a battlefield. I had Bayushi Saya unbowed at home. I played two front war, bowing Saya and targeting Paneki and Muhito with the hopes of moving them home.
My opponent reacted with Misdirection and chose to target Muhito and Saya. Fine so far. The problem is that he said that they needed to move to the current battlefield, thus moving Saya. I went along with this and now had Paneki, Muhito and Saya bowed at the battlefield, and lost the battle (and personalities).
In looking back at it, I believe that this was played incorrectly. Am I correct in assuming the he was able to choose the targets, but the action would have still moved Muhito (and Saya, because she was target) home?
This cost me the game, so I would like to learn the correct ruling in case it happens again. Thanks.
Two-Front War Political Battle: Bow one of your target Courtiers, even in your home: Target a number of your Personalities up to his Chi. Move them home, or move them to the current battlefield if any enemy units are there. Straighten the targets' units if this moved them into a defending army.
Misdirection: Political Gozoku Reaction: Before another player would choose targets for one of his action's effects during a battle, target one of your Courtier or Gozoku Personalities: You choose the targets instead.
In the case you described, the person playing Misdirection could have:
A) Chosen 0 targets (effectively nullifying your action) B) Chosen 1 target, and chosen 1) Saya, moving her to the battelfield (so as to keep the action legal) 2) Muhito, and you could have either moved him home or moved him to the battlefield. 3) Paneki exp3, and you could have either moved him home or moved him to the battlefield. C) Chosen to target two people 1) If he chose Saya and another personality, you would have to move Saya to the battelfield to keep the action legal (Rule of Location. Even though the rule is waived for the cost, it is not waved for the targeting in the effect). 2) If he chose Muhito and Paneki, you could have moved them home or to the battlefield. D) Chosen to target all 3, in which case you must have moved Saya to the battlefield to make it legal.
Misdirection DOES NOT let the player choose effects. However, the effect must be legal for the target chosen.
A player, 12 February 2009
Concerning Misdirection and Two-Front War
Thank you for your answer. Am I correct in paraphrasing your answer to:
"All targets of a battle actions effect must satisfy the rule of location, unless the rule of location is waived in some way."
So even thought I was able to target Saya as a cost of the action, when she was targeted for the effects, she would have to be able to satisfy the rule of location by the end of the actions resolution (therefore, she had to move to the battlefield)?
Thank you.
Dan Jacobson (rules official), 12 February 2009
Concerning Misdirection and Two-Front War
Thank you for your answer. Am I correct in paraphrasing your answer to:
"All targets of a battle actions effect must satisfy the rule of location, unless the rule of location is waived in some way."
So even thought I was able to target Saya as a cost of the action, when she was targeted for the effects, she would have to be able to satisfy the rule of location by the end of the actions resolution (therefore, she had to move to the battlefield)?
Thank you.
Correct, but remove the word "effect" from your sentence. The wording on Two-Front War waives the Rule of Location if the courtier bowing for the COST of the card is at home. It does not waive that for the effect.
Player A: Has two people bowed at a battlefield and a Courtier with 3 chi at home. He plays two front war, bowing his courtier at home, and targeting the two people at the battlefield electing to move them home.
Player B: Plays Misdirection, and redirects the targeting to target both the courtier at home, and a personality at the battlefield. Kaiu Genji has stated that the only legal course of action is to move the courtier to the battlefield and straighten her. Here is why I am rephrasing this for clarification because I believe this may be incorrect:
1. You can bow an already bowed personality. If the Courtier is already at home, and was a legal target for the action. Would it not be legal to move her home? 2. Misdirection can not change or choose the effects, only the targeting. 3. The only cost for two front war is Targeting and bowing a Courtier. The rest of the action is an effect. 4. The ruling appears to be based off the rule of location. Stating that in order for the action to be legal, the courtier would have to move to the battlefield. However on the card, two front war allows you to target a personality at home. Also, the requirement to have a personality at the battlefield is already met by the two other personalities there.
Could the player just elect to move home one of the bowed personalities and then move home an already home courtier? After all, movement is only an effect. All legal targeting applications in this scenario have already been met. Much like bowing is an effect.
A player, 13 February 2009
Political Battle: Bow one of your target Courtiers, even in your home: Target a number of your Personalities up to his Chi. Move them home, or move them to the current battlefield if any enemy units are there. Straighten the targets' units if this moved them into a defending army.
I control one opposed unit at the current battlefield (thus Rule of Presence is fulfilled in any case), and an unbowed Shosuro Jimen XP at home with chi 4. I announce Two-front war. I target Jimen XP to perform it, and four units at home (all of them). I bow Jimen to pay the cost.
Can I choose to move home my four units already at home?
The real issue is: how much does the "even in your home" clause waive the rule of Location? Can I waive it when targeting my performer courtier only? Or can I waive it too with the second piece of targeting?
A player, 13 February 2009
Can I choose to move home my four units already at home?
No, per the exception to the Rule of Location (emphasis added): "A Battle Action can target or be taken by a card in a unit at another location if its costs or effects say they can move the unit to the current battlefield. Choices within the action must then be taken, if possible, such that they do move the unit there."
how much does the "even in your home" clause waive the rule of Location?
This clause is only related to the targeting of the Personality in the constraints block, who can perform Two-Front War while staying at home.
This is what I'm trying to point out. Loic, you said this:
[No, per the exception to the Rule of Location (emphasis added): "A Battle Action can target or be taken by a card in a unit at another location if its costs or effects say they can move the unit to the current battlefield. Choices within the action must then be taken, if possible, such that they do move the unit there."] -emphasis added.
Two Front War, has been played by a unit AT home. And choosing to move units AT home to Home. Note that the rule of presence has already been satisfied and we have already met all targeting requirements and costs. No location change is needed. Two front war allows you to move units into the "home" location.
Or rather, how about this:
If you use two front war from a courtier at home, and target 4 units at the current battlefield, you can move all 4 current units you targeted to the same exact battlefield they already occupy.
If you rule that those 4 units have to go home then what rule allows Kaiu Genji's previous statement that would force Saya to the battlefield yet allow Muhito to remain and not be moved home.
This is much like bowing an already bowed card.
A player, 13 February 2009
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=73934
[No, per the exception to the Rule of Location (emphasis added): "A Battle Action can target or be taken by a card in a unit at another location if its costs or effects say they can move the unit to the current battlefield. Choices within the action must then be taken, if possible, such that they do move the unit there."]
"Two Front War, has been played by a unit AT home. And choosing to move units AT home to Home. Note that the rule of presence has already been satisfied and we have already met all targeting requirements and costs. No location change is needed. Two front war allows you to move units into the "home" location." -crankybolt
You are wrong. You are not able to target units at home and move them to home while still satisfying the rule of location with Two-front war. The only part of two front that ignores location is the fact that the courtier you bow for the cost can be at home. If that same courtier is targeted for the effect, and is at home, he MUST move to the current battlefield due to the previously quoted exception to the rule of location. If you target your courtier (or any other unit) at home with two-front war, regardless of how they ended up being targeted (your choice, misdirection), you must make the choice to move them to the current battlefield. Choosing to move a unit at home to home with two front war is a play mistake, and could be construed as cheating if done intentionally.