L5R CCG Rules board, 11 February 2009 to 4 March 2009
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 11 February 2009
Previous Ruling on Chuda Hankyu
Previous Ruling on Coward.
Previous Ruling on Spider's Lair
As I currently understand it, these statements are all true: Conditional effects that cause honor losses, such as Coward, do not restrict a player from playing Lies, Lies, Lies. Unconditional effects that cause honor losses, such as Hired Killer and Chuda Hankyu, do restrict a player from playing Lies, Lies, Lies. Cards that include honor losses as a trait restrict a player from playing Lies, Lies, Lies.
My question is as follows: Would a card with a trait whose honor loss effect is conditional still prevent them from playing Lies, Lies, Lies?
Example: Demented Craftsman After this card enters play: Lose 1 Honor; if you are a Spider Clan player you may instead gain 1 Honor.
And, to be slightly more specific, would playing Demented Craftsman restrict me from playing Lies, Lies, Lies?
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 11 February 2009
(W)ould playing Demented Craftsman restrict me from playing Lies, Lies, Lies?
The substitution of Y for X is not a negation of X.
I'm still a little confused by the explanation.
I have a few followup questions: Doesn't the "if" modifier, as in "if you are a Spider Clan player you may instead gain 1 Honor", then make the substitution conditional, which is what Lies, Lies, Lies checks for in determining the nature of the effect?
Additionally, by the definition of substitution, wouldn't the card effectively then read: After this card enters play: Gain 1 Honor., which is allowable by Lies, Lies, Lies?
Or is it disallowed simply because although the substitution is conditional, it still happens singularly, meaning the card's effect is effectively the same?
I guess I'm just looking for the full logic by which the card's wording prevents Lies, Lies, Lies from being played.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 11 February 2009
Previous Topic
Definition of Instead.
The substitution of Y for X is not a negation of X.
I'm still a little confused by the explanation.
I have a few followup questions: Doesn't the "if" modifier, as in "if you are a Spider Clan player you may instead gain 1 Honor", then make the substitution conditional, which is what Lies, Lies, Lies checks for in determining the nature of the effect?
Additionally, by the definition of substitution, wouldn't the card effectively then read: After this card enters play: Gain 1 Honor., which is allowable by Lies, Lies, Lies?
Or is it disallowed simply because although the substitution is conditional, it still happens singularly, meaning the card's effect is effectively the same?
I guess I'm just looking for the full logic by which the card's wording prevents Lies, Lies, Lies from being played.
Having thought on this a little more, the previous post was wrong. The honor loss is conditional. Sorry for the goof.
How can Demented Craftsman be a conditional honor loss? When a player from any clan other than Spider clan announces he's bringing into play a Demented Craftsman, the outcome of the trait triggering is known: he'll lose 1 honor. No choices here.
According to Zen's ruling: And one last clarification: The Honor losses have to be unconditional (i.e., not dependent on a player choice or outcome of an action, etc.). (Emphasis mine)
There's no definition of "conditional" in the Comprehensive rules glossary (probably because that term isn't printed in cards under Samurai Edition, after the Rosoku Sensei mess in Lotus), so tentatively the using of this term in rulings is a double-edged sword. But using the Legacy rules: An effect is conditional if, at the time the action, Event, or trait producing that effect begins resolving, it has not yet been determined whether the effect will occur. (Again, Emphases mine)
I believe that the triggered trait of Demented Craftsman creates only a conditional honor loss if you're a Spider Clan player. If you're not, then it creates a non-conditional honor loss, because you know that no matter what you'll lose 1 Honor. It has been determined at the moment your stronghold isn't Spider Clan, and you don't have a choice here. And hence it should restrict playing Lies, Lies, Lies... in the case of non-Spider players.
Alternatively, can I have a Samurai rules definition of "conditional effects"? So that we can discern whether Lies, Lies, Lies can be played or not...
P.S. The request of a definition of "Conditional effects" is honest: I don't like the Legacy definition because it's a little bit ambiguous.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 12 February 2009
These rulings are shocking me.
How can Demented Craftsman be a conditional honor loss? When a player from any clan other than Spider clan announces he's bringing into play a Demented Craftsman, the outcome of the trait triggering is known: he'll lose 1 honor. No choices here.
According to Zen's ruling: And one last clarification: The Honor losses have to be unconditional (i.e., not dependent on a player choice or outcome of an action, etc.). (Emphasis mine)
There's no definition of "conditional" in the Comprehensive rules glossary (probably because that term isn't printed in cards under Samurai Edition, after the Rosoku Sensei mess in Lotus), so tentatively the using of this term in rulings is a double-edged sword. But using the Legacy rules: An effect is conditional if, at the time the action, Event, or trait producing that effect begins resolving, it has not yet been determined whether the effect will occur. (Again, Emphases mine)
I believe that the triggered trait of Demented Craftsman creates only a conditional honor loss if you're a Spider Clan player. If you're not, then it creates a non-conditional honor loss, because you know that no matter what you'll lose 1 Honor. It has been determined at the moment your stronghold isn't Spider Clan, and you don't have a choice here. And hence it should restrict playing Lies, Lies, Lies... in the case of non-Spider players.
Alternatively, can I have a Samurai rules definition of "conditional effects"? So that we can discern whether Lies, Lies, Lies can be played or not...
P.S. The request of a definition of "Conditional effects" is honest: I don't like the Legacy definition because it's a little bit ambiguous.
Since there's no current definition, I'm going to fall back on old general principles. When you pick up and read Demented Craftsman -- or any card, for that matter, and ask the question, "Does this card cause an honor loss?", there are three possible answers: "Yes," "No," and "Maybe." If the answer is maybe, the effect is conditional. The specific wording on Demented Craftsman is unusual (which is why I initially fluffed the ruling), but that doesn't change the answer. Does it cause an honor loss? Maybe. Depends on what your stronghold is. But, following the blind cards rule, you don't consider what stronghold is in play. You read the card text in isolation.
We'll see what we might do about a better definition.
Zen said: Depends on what your stronghold is. But, following the blind cards rule, you don't consider what stronghold is in play. You read the card text in isolation.
Blind cards rule says: When a rule or card text needs to know what an action does or will do, it only takes into account the current text of the action. It does not consider any continuous, ongoing or triggered effects that change or negate the action's own function.
Is clan alignment a continuous effect, ongoing effect or a triggered effect? I doubt that the Blind Cards rule can be invoked here. Blind Cards rule is about conflicting effects and legality of actions. Clan alignment isn't an effect per se. It's a game state of the player.
Glossary says: Clan alignment
The term “Clan alignment” refers to the nine major clans in Samurai Edition: Crab, Crane, Dragon, Lion, Mantis, Phoenix, Scorpion, Spider, and Unicorn.
Clan alignment is normally granted to players by the alignment of their Stronghold. --------------
The answer to the question "Does this card cause an honor loss?" has a definite answer (Yes) since Clan Alignment isn't an effect and thus should be considered.
Therefore, I don't think Demented Craftsman's trait is a conditional honor loss, and it should restrict from playing Lies, Lies, Lies... And the Blind Cards rule doesn't work here because there are no conflicting effects being considered.
A player, 4 March 2009
So by virtue of this ruling:
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=73854
A Spider deck with any personalities with printed honor losses, regardless of the fact those losses never happen (meaning any Spider personalities with honor losses) can never use Lies, Lies, Lies.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 4 March 2009
A Spider deck with any personalities with printed honor losses, regardless of the fact those losses never happen (meaning any Spider personalities with honor losses) can never use Lies, Lies, Lies.