My opponent has two people in his provinces, a 4 gold cost personality, and a 12 gold person, and has the ability to pay 8 gold with his holdings. During a battle, he attempts to Unexpected Arrival the 4 gold personality into play, and I misdirect the action to his 12 gold cost personality. Is he forced to bow his gold in an attempt to bring the personality into play, or does the action fail with no cost?
Unexpected Arrival and Misdirection
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
My opponent has two people in his provinces, a 4 gold cost personality, and a 12 gold person, and has the ability to pay 8 gold with his holdings. During a battle, he attempts to Unexpected Arrival the 4 gold personality into play, and I misdirect the action to his 12 gold cost personality. Is he forced to bow his gold in an attempt to bring the personality into play, or does the action fail with no cost?
Mandatory costs: The mandatory costs of a card entering play are its Gold Cost (if any) and any other costs for entering play listed in its traits.
Costs must be payable when an action is announced under the Good Faith Rule. If, due to interference from other effects, a mandatory cost cannot be paid at the point when it must be paid: * No remaining costs need be paid, but costs already paid are not refunded. * No effects of the action or trait resolve, and the ability or trait is considered to have been “used.” * If the cost was for a card to enter play, it is discarded.
The mandatory cost of bringing the 12g Personality into play cannot be paid, even though the action was announced in good faith, so your opponent does not need to pay that cost and the Personality is discarded.
Following viewtopic.php?f=59&t=73823
The personnality in the Unexpected Arrival / Misdirection is just a target of the effect, why should the card be discarded?
Following viewtopic.php?f=59&t=73823
The personnality in the Unexpected Arrival / Misdirection is just a target of the effect, why should the card be discarded?
There are two sets of costs involved with Unexpected Arrival: the costs of the action and the costs of the Personality. In general, Unexpected Arrival has no costs, so you move straight to the effects, which involve bringing the Personality into play.
Bringing a Personality into play has at least one mandatory cost, the gold cost of the Personality. To announce Unexpected Arrival in Good Faith, you must have a Personality face-up in your provinces whose cost(s) you can pay. If the Personality you try to bring into play isn't the one you were planning on targeting when you announced the action, this is treated as interference with a mandatory cost. If a mandatory cost is interfered with, you don't need to pay it. If you don't pay the mandatory cost of a card you are bringing into play, the card is discarded.
As well as the section I quoted earlier, see also Using Personalities.
After reading this ruling, I want to make sure I understand some interactions between those two cards and the "Using personalities" sequence. Loyal personality of other Clan: Setup: I am playing Clan X In my provinces I have: Personality A from Clan X Personality B from Clan Y (loyal) I play Unexpected Arrival, in order to bring Personality A into play. My opponents reacts with Misdirection, targetting Personality B instead. Since B is loyal to Clan Y, I cannot bring him into play, would he go back into the province following step B of "Using personalities"? or would he be discarded?Choosing not to pay the additional cost Setup: I have two personalities of my Clan in my provinces: Personality A with Gold Cost 6 Personality B with Gold cost 10 I can produce enough Gold to bring both into play. I play Unexpected Arrival, in order to bring Personality A into play. My opponents reacts with Misdirection, targetting Personality B instead. Can I choose not to pay the cost of Personality B using the Alterations to costs and payments rule? (Not sure if it applies.) If so, what would happen to Personality B?
So under the comprehensive rules for mandatory costs it states:-
Costs must be payable when an action is announced under the Good Faith Rule. If, due to interference from other effects, a mandatory cost cannot be paid at the point when it must be paid:
* No remaining costs need be paid, but costs already paid are not refunded. * No effects of the action or trait resolve, and the ability or trait is considered to have been “used.” * If the cost was for a card to enter play, it is discarded.
And unexpected arrival states:-
Battle: If any enemy units are at the current battlefield: Target a Personality in one of your provinces. Bring him into play at the current battlefield, paying 2 less Gold and ignoring his Honor Requirement.
So by the wording it means if my opponent uses unexpected arrival, and I use misdirection. If he chooses not to or cannot pay the new costs, the targetted personality is discarded from the province, as it was a cost for the personality to enter play.
My common sense, however tells me this is how it should not play the personaility would stay in the province and the action would just fail. The comphrehensive rules just need some clarifying.
Thank you for your response.
So by the wording it means if my opponent uses unexpected arrival, and I use misdirection. If he chooses not to or cannot pay the new costs, the targetted personality is discarded from the province, as it was a cost for the personality to enter play.
This is what the rulings above do indeed state.
My common sense, however tells me this is how it should not play the personaility would stay in the province and the action would just fail. The comphrehensive rules just need some clarifying.
Thanks for the feedback. No promises for any immediate change, though.
Clearing up a couple of things...
The Personality doesn't enter play directly from the province. A Personality being brought into play first enters "a specially created entering-play area", and from there is either brought into play, discarded or returned to the province, depending on whether costs and conditions (Loyal, honour requirement, etc) are paid or met.
If the conditions (other than having paid any costs) are not met, the Personality is returned to the province. If the conditions are met but the costs are not paid, the Personality is discarded from the entering-play area. If conditions are met and the costs are paid, the Personality enters play.
See Using Personalities and Mandatory costs.
Alex