A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 9 December 2008
There was a thread about this during Samurai edition previews, but the question was left unanswered.
I play Ambush, targeting a samurai personality. When may I react with Seppuku?
Seppuku:
Reaction: Any number of times per turn, before you lose Honor from an action that targeted or was performed by one of your Courtier or Samurai Personalities: He commits seppuku. If the seppuku destroyed him, reduce the Honor loss to one.
Ambush:
Limited: Target one of your unbowed Personalities: Create a battlefield (not at any province). Assign your Personality to attack there. Assign another player’s target Personality to defend there, even if bowed. No other units may move there. Fight a battle there. After it ends, lose 5 Honor.
Specifically, I want to know if a Phoenix Clan Samurai can ever commit Seppuku off of Ambush and have it be considered "during a battle" for the purposes of Ring of the Phoenix.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 9 December 2008
I want to know if a Phoenix Clan Samurai can ever commit Seppuku off of Ambush and have it be considered "during a battle" for the purposes of Ring of the Phoenix.
No.
Effects occur in order written on the card. The honor loss from Ambush is dead last. The battle is well over by then.
A player, 17 December 2008
Zen said here: Effects occur in order written on the card. The honor loss from Ambush is dead last. The battle is well over by then.
Respectfully, I disagree. According to the Comprehensive Rules
Battles created by a card effect that does not create an Attack Phase are treated as normal battles, except:
* Such battles are (slightly) delayed effects that begin once the action or trait that created them has resolved, and the opportunity to play Reactions to the end of the action or trait has passed, in a manner similar to additional phases and actions. [CHANGED June 3 2008]
(Emphasis mine) It doesn't really change the answer (It's still not possible for the seppuku to count towards Ring of the Phoenix because seppuku should happen before the battle) for the original question, but it's important whether the seppuku occurs before or after the battle. (Which would mean you can't assign, kill by resolution, and then reduce the loss to 1; you'd have to choose between fighting the battle or reducing the loss)
Am I right in this?
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 17 December 2008
Zen said here: Effects occur in order written on the card. The honor loss from Ambush is dead last. The battle is well over by then.
Respectfully, I disagree. According to the Comprehensive Rules
Battles created by a card effect that does not create an Attack Phase are treated as normal battles, except:
* Such battles are (slightly) delayed effects that begin once the action or trait that created them has resolved, and the opportunity to play Reactions to the end of the action or trait has passed, in a manner similar to additional phases and actions. [CHANGED June 3 2008]
(Emphasis mine) It doesn't really change the answer (It's still not possible for the seppuku to count towards Ring of the Phoenix because seppuku should happen before the battle) for the original question, but it's important whether the seppuku occurs before or after the battle. (Which would mean you can't assign, kill by resolution, and then reduce the loss to 1; you'd have to choose between fighting the battle or reducing the loss)
Am I right in this?
I think that's correct. I'll put in an exception in the wiki for the order of effects section.
A player, 18 December 2008
Bayushi Mamoru said It doesn't really change the answer (It's still not possible for the seppuku to count towards Ring of the Phoenix because seppuku should happen before the battle) for the original question, but it's important whether the seppuku occurs before or after the battle. (Which would mean you can't assign, kill by resolution, and then reduce the loss to 1; you'd have to choose between fighting the battle or reducing the loss) (emphasis added)
Zen Faulkes said: I think that's correct.
As I read it, the honor loss is a delayed effect that clearly happens after the battle is ended, and since the trigger for seppuku is the actual honor loss, and not the resolution of the action that cause it, the seppuku does not occur until after resolution of the battle.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 18 December 2008
Bayushi Mamoru said It doesn't really change the answer (It's still not possible for the seppuku to count towards Ring of the Phoenix because seppuku should happen before the battle) for the original question, but it's important whether the seppuku occurs before or after the battle. (Which would mean you can't assign, kill by resolution, and then reduce the loss to 1; you'd have to choose between fighting the battle or reducing the loss) (emphasis added)
Zen Faulkes said: I think that's correct.
As I read it, the honor loss is a delayed effect that clearly happens after the battle is ended, and since the trigger for seppuku is the actual honor loss, and not the resolution of the action that cause it, the seppuku does not occur until after resolution of the battle.
Fellow Rules Junta member also pointed out to me that the honour loss occurs after the battle finishes, as does any Seppuku - it's a Reaction to the honour loss effect, not to the Action that creates the honour loss. Reactions to the Ambush action occur before the Battle is fought; Reactions to its effects, including delayed effects like the honour loss, occur as the effects happen.