Pokku exp. and Fortified camp

L5R CCG Rules board, 29 November 2008 to 30 November 2008

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 29 November 2008

Hi there,

When judging I was asked about the following situation.

Player A attacks with a random personality A, which had an Attachment (lets say a weapon costing 2 Gold). Player B has an unbowed Fortified Camp in play and defends with Pokku xp -> a battle ensures, Player B takes the first action and uses Pokku's printed Battleaction to transfer the Weapon to Pokku xp. Player A then destroys Pokku.

Can Player B use the reaction of Fortified Camp (assuming he has a legal target to attach the weapon to) ?

What was confusing for me was the fact, that Player B controls the weapon (A is just the owner now) and it clearly is an effect of your opponent, so you (normally) should be able to use Fortified Camps's reaction. But ...right in the moment, when the Weapon is destroyed, it's not actually attached to Pokku anymore ("after...destroys...it's personality") and thus not anymore "Player B's attachment", because the weapon is not attached anymore, so Fortified camp has no valid trigger anymore.

So I'm kinda unsure about the exact timing of a personality's attachments being destroyed due to the personality being destroyed (and if you can take a reaction like Fortified camp inbetween)

Thanks for your time,

---------------------

Just to be sure:

Same example as above, just that Player A "only" destroys _just the Weapon_ with an action:

In that case B can't take the reaction printed on fortified camp, can he ? (reasoning is above - weapon not attached to Pokku xp. anymore, so it's not player B's weapon and thus there is no valid trigger for the reaction)

Zen Faulkes (rules official), 29 November 2008

Hi there,

When judging I was asked about the following situation.

Player A attacks with a random personality A, which had an Attachment (lets say a weapon costing 2 Gold). Player B has an unbowed Fortified Camp in play and defends with Pokku xp -> a battle ensures, Player B takes the first action and uses Pokku's printed Battleaction to transfer the Weapon to Pokku xp. Player A then destroys Pokku.

Can Player B use the reaction of Fortified Camp (assuming he has a legal target to attach the weapon to) ?

What was confusing for me was the fact, that Player B controls the weapon (A is just the owner now) and it clearly is an effect of your opponent, so you (normally) should be able to use Fortified Camps's reaction. But ...right in the moment, when the Weapon is destroyed, it's not actually attached to Pokku anymore ("after...destroys...it's personality") and thus not anymore "Player B's attachment", because the weapon is not attached anymore, so Fortified camp has no valid trigger anymore.

So I'm kinda unsure about the exact timing of a personality's attachments being destroyed due to the personality being destroyed (and if you can take a reaction like Fortified camp inbetween)

Thanks for your time,

---------------------

Just to be sure:

Same example as above, just that Player A "only" destroys _just the Weapon_ with an action:

In that case B can't take the reaction printed on fortified camp, can he ? (reasoning is above - weapon not attached to Pokku xp. anymore, so it's not player B's weapon and thus there is no valid trigger for the reaction)

Because the Reaction on Fortified Camp is after the item is destroyed, the item's owner is the one who gets to use it if the item alone is destroyed (see Your, http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_X-Z). It won't matter if the Personality is controlled by another player, because "its Personality" refers back to "your attachment."

Zen Faulkes (rules official), 30 November 2008

Correction to above:

Because the Reaction on Fortified Camp is triggered by destruction, this timing rule comes into play: http://rules.l5r.com/Timing#Triggers.2C ... ering_play

"When a trigger is keyed to after a card enters or leaves play, and there is also a condition on the trigger, the condition refers back to the state of the card at the point just before the card left or entered play."

Consequently, "your" checks for who controlled it, not who owns it, even in the discard pile.

I've added this exception to the glossary entry for "your."