A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 11 August 2008
Pekkle no Oni has the trait: 'After Pekkle is destroyed: Lose 10 Honor.' Determination's text: Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
My opponent uses Hired Killer to destroy my Pekkle no Oni and wanting to be sure plays Determination as a Reaction to it. There are two effects that trigger after Pekkle's destruction: removing Pekkle from the game and me losing 10 Honor.
1. Which of these effects occur first? 2. If Pekkle is removed from the game before the Honor loss, will the Honor loss trigger?
Thank you!
Alex Jones (rules official), 12 August 2008
Pekkle no Oni has the trait: 'After Pekkle is destroyed: Lose 10 Honor.' Determination's text: Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.
My opponent uses Hired Killer to destroy my Pekkle no Oni and wanting to be sure plays Determination as a Reaction to it. There are two effects that trigger after Pekkle's destruction: removing Pekkle from the game and me losing 10 Honor.
1. Which of these effects occur first? 2. If Pekkle is removed from the game before the Honor loss, will the Honor loss trigger?
Thank you!
Timing: If two or more reactions, triggered traits, or rules procedures are triggered at the same point in time, follow this sequence from A through F to resolve their order. D. Apply any delayed effects or indefinite conditional effects that resolved previously and are timed to the trigger (such as, “After the next time this turn he assigns…” or "After each time this turn a Personality assigns...") E. Apply any triggered traits on cards.
Determination creates a delayed effect that removes the Personality from the game and so falls under D. Pekkle's trait is a triggered trait and so falls under E.
Pekkle no Oni is removed from the game before you lose 10 honour.
Alex Jones (rules official), 12 August 2008
It's been pointed out that my last sentence above could be interpreted as meaning that you still lose the 10 honour even though Pekkle no Oni has been removed from the game. This is not the case, as cards outside the game do not create effects.
Pekkle no Oni is removed from the game before her trait would trigger, so you do not lose 10 honour.
Alex
A player, 12 August 2008
In the original post here: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=69896
Determination specifically removes the personality from the game after they are destroyed. Wouldn't that mean that Pekkle no Oni's Honor loss reaction would trigger at the same time as the removal? And if so, wouldn't therefore the active player decide which trigger resolves first?
Alex Jones (rules official), 12 August 2008
In the original post here: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=69896
Determination specifically removes the personality from the game after they are destroyed. Wouldn't that mean that Pekkle no Oni's Honor loss reaction would trigger at the same time as the removal? And if so, wouldn't therefore the active player decide which trigger resolves first?
No.
As described above, Determination creates a different type of triggered effect, a delayed effect*, compared to Pekkle's triggered trait. As described under Timing, and quoted above, these effects are resolved in an order specified by their type. Only if separate effects are of the same type - for example, two delayed effects or two triggered traits - does the active player decide the order in which those effects resolve.
Alex
(*) Technically, it's an indefinite conditional effect, but the difference isn't relevant here.