Timing with Ring of the Void and Ambush/Heated Discussion

L5R CCG Rules board, 29 May 2008 to 3 June 2008

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 29 May 2008

Ambush reads: Limited: Target one of your unbowed Personalities: Create a battlefield (not at any province). Assign your Personality to attack there. Assign another player's target Personality to defend there, even if bowed. No other units may move there. Fight a battle there. After it ends, lose 5 Honor.

Heated Discussion reads: Political Limited: Target another player's Personality. Create a battlefield and assign him to defend there. Assign any number of your Courtier or Magistrate Personalities to attack there. The Defender may then assign any of his Courtier or Magistrate Personalities there. Fight the battle. During the battle, before any Personality is destroyed, dishonor him instead.

Ring of the Void reads: After you successfully resolve your fourth or later non-Kiho action from Action cards in one phase: You may put this card into play from your hand.

Comprehensive Rules: Battles reads: Battles created by a card effect that does not create an Attack Phase are treated as normal battles, except:

* Such battles are (slightly) delayed effects that begin after the action or trait that created them has resolved, in a manner similar to additional phases and actions. [ADDED Oct 17 2007]

Comprehensive Rules: Delayed Effects reads: Such delayed effects are still said to “resolve” when they are first activated, but are actually applied at a future time. Example: in “Battle: After your next Attack Phase this game begins, target a unit and bow it” the Battle action resolves fully during that battle, but the targeting and bowing occurs in the player’s next Attack Phase.

Do these mean that the action successfully resolves before the created battle takes place?

Example: If I play three Non-Kiho actions from action cards, then play Ambush, do I play Ring of the Void before the battle, after the battle, or after the honor loss?

Similarly: If I play two Non-Kiho actions from action cards, then Ambush, and then a non-kiho action from an action card during the battle, do I play Ring of Void after the action in the battle, after the battle ends, or after the honor loss?

Either way, I would guess that Heated Discussion follows the same rules.

Thanks for your time!

Alex Jones (rules official), 30 May 2008

Do these mean that the action successfully resolves before the created battle takes place?

Yes. You create the battlefield and assign the Personalities during the "Action Resolves" step. That and the "Action Ends" step of taking an action are completed and Ambush is considered resolved. The normal procedure for effects and Reactions triggered by the end of an action is followed. Then you fight the battle.

Example: If I play three Non-Kiho actions from action cards, then play Ambush, do I play Ring of the Void before the battle, after the battle, or after the honor loss?

Before the battle.

Similarly: If I play two Non-Kiho actions from action cards, then Ambush, and then a non-kiho action from an action card during the battle, do I play Ring of Void after the action in the battle, after the battle ends, or after the honor loss?

After the action in the battle.

Either way, I would guess that Heated Discussion follows the same rules.

Yes.

Alex Jones (rules official), 3 June 2008

I've corrected the timing of the steps of the Ambush. See here for more details.

Alex