Determination + Destroying Terrains

L5R CCG Rules board, 16 April 2008

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 16 April 2008

Relevant card texts:

Determination -- Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.

A delayed effect is activated at one time, but is actually applied at another. Such delayed effects are still said to “resolve” when they are first activated, but are actually applied at a future time.

If “all effects” of an action or trait are negated partway through the action or trait’s resolution, instantaneous effects that have already resolved are not undone, but ongoing effects that have already resolved are negated. Negating an effect does not suspend its duration. If the negation effect ends before the original effect would have, the original effect still expires at its normal time.

I play Determination and Three-Stone River. On his/her action, my opponent attempts to destroy the terrain with Forewarning/Akodo's Grave.

A) Destroying the terrain would negate ongoing/delayed effects, so Determination does not allow it. B) Destroying the terrain is not considered negating the effects, so Forewarning/Akodo's Grave destroys the terrain, implying the only effect protected by Determination is the rulebook effect of entering play and/or instantaneous effects on the terrain. --B1) The terrain is destroyed by Forewarning, but the ongoing/delayed effects still remain due to Determination, allowing other terrains to be played at the battle regardless of ongoing/delayed effects being preserved. --B2) The terrain is destroyed by Forewarning and the ongoing/delayed effects are stopped because the source card has been removed from play. --B3) The terrain is destroyed by Forewarning, but the ongoing/delayed effects remain because while the source card has left play, it has not been removed from the game.

Zen Faulkes (rules official), 16 April 2008

Relevant card texts:

Determination -- Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.

A delayed effect is activated at one time, but is actually applied at another. Such delayed effects are still said to “resolve” when they are first activated, but are actually applied at a future time.

If “all effects” of an action or trait are negated partway through the action or trait’s resolution, instantaneous effects that have already resolved are not undone, but ongoing effects that have already resolved are negated. Negating an effect does not suspend its duration. If the negation effect ends before the original effect would have, the original effect still expires at its normal time.

I play Determination and Three-Stone River. On his/her action, my opponent attempts to destroy the terrain with Forewarning/Akodo's Grave.

A) Destroying the terrain would negate ongoing/delayed effects, so Determination does not allow it. B) Destroying the terrain is not considered negating the effects, so Forewarning/Akodo's Grave destroys the terrain, implying the only effect protected by Determination is the rulebook effect of entering play and/or instantaneous effects on the terrain. --B1) The terrain is destroyed by Forewarning, but the ongoing/delayed effects still remain due to Determination, allowing other terrains to be played at the battle regardless of ongoing/delayed effects being preserved. --B2) The terrain is destroyed by Forewarning and the ongoing/delayed effects are stopped because the source card has been removed from play. --B3) The terrain is destroyed by Forewarning, but the ongoing/delayed effects remain because while the source card has left play, it has not been removed from the game.

Destroying a Terrain is not prohibited by Determination. Destroying something has nothing to do with negating its effects.

A player, 16 April 2008

Referring to this thread http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=67206

The actual question in which was not addressed at large.

Relevant card texts:

Determination -- Dark Virtue Reaction: Before you announce an action, target one of your Samurai: The action can not have its effects negated or have its targeting changed. After the action destroys any Personality, remove him from the game.

A delayed effect is activated at one time, but is actually applied at another. Such delayed effects are still said to “resolve” when they are first activated, but are actually applied at a future time.

If “all effects” of an action or trait are negated partway through the action or trait’s resolution, instantaneous effects that have already resolved are not undone, but ongoing effects that have already resolved are negated. Negating an effect does not suspend its duration. If the negation effect ends before the original effect would have, the original effect still expires at its normal time.

I play Determination and Three-Stone River. On his/her action, my opponent attempts to destroy the terrain with Forewarning/Akodo's Grave.

A) Destroying the terrain would negate ongoing/delayed effects, so Determination does not allow it. B) Destroying the terrain is not considered negating the effects, so Forewarning/Akodo's Grave destroys the terrain, implying the only effect protected by Determination is the rulebook effect of entering play and/or instantaneous effects on the terrain. --B1) The terrain is destroyed by Forewarning, but the ongoing/delayed effects still remain due to Determination, allowing other terrains to be played at the battle regardless of ongoing/delayed effects being preserved. --B2) The terrain is destroyed by Forewarning and the ongoing/delayed effects are stopped because the source card has been removed from play. --B3) The terrain is destroyed by Forewarning, but the ongoing/delayed effects remain because while the source card has left play, it has not been removed from the game.

I would like to know what the final result is of destroying a terrain which has been played with Determination, since the effects produced by the terrain are generally delayed/ongoing effects with durations that trigger when the terrain is played, thus can conceivably continue once the terrain is destroyed, thus in theory can be interpreted to be protected by Determination independently of the game status of the terrain card itself. I have provided the above examples for simplicity.

Martin Lund (rules official), 16 April 2008

If a Terrain is destroyed, its ongoing effects end, and its delayed effects will no longer be applied. This is not negation of those effects (that is, even effects that can not be negated will be ended).

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