Akodo Hachigoro vs. Bayushi Muhito

If my opponent uses his Akodo Hachigoro to drag in my Bayushi Muhito - do I get the chance to perform an action?

[Mod edit: Thread title. - ZF]

Refering to this post: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=66805

Akodo Hachigoro: Reaction: If you are attacking, after armies at Hachigoro's battlefield engage: You may target one of the Defender's units, move it to Hachigoro's battlefield, and straighten it. You have the first opportunity to take a Battle action or pass this battle.

Bayushi Muhito: Reaction: After an action resolves that moved Muhito to or from a battlefield: Take an additional Battle action.

*Bolded sections are emphasized for argued points*

I don't see anything in Muhito's effect that allows it to override or negate Hachigoro's effects.

Did Muhito move? Yes.

Has the movement's action's effects resolved? No.

Hachigoro's ability distinctly says that it's player gets the first battle action. Muhito's says take an additional Battle Action. Would the correct chain not be that Muhito's action puts the opportunity for it's player to take an additonal Battle Action (though actually being the Defenders first action) after the Hacigoro's secured first action of this battle but before his own first regular action?

Basically:

1) Armies engage, Attacking player reacts with Hachigoro moving Muhito, securing first Battle Action or Pass option. 2) Defender reacts with Muhito, securing an additional Battle action. 3) Attacking player decides whether to take a Battle action or pass. 4) Defender takes his Muhito secured Battle action. 5) Defender takes his "first" Battle action.

regarding the post here by Akodo Kaiyushi

I will argue for the scorpion since I believe that I am correct with my rules interpretation.

Sample Scenario Lion and Crane alliance attack Scorpion Lion and crane both have hachigoro and both harpoon two distinct Bayushi Muhito cards

Given this scenario, if "first opportunity to take a Battle action or pass this battle." means that you actually have to take that action, then this means that Lion Hachigoro's action will never be resolved since the Crane hachigoro will be the only one to fully do first opportunity to take a Battle action or pass this battle. This means that the first Muhito can never react since it won't resolve. That's just not right.

from http://rules.l5r.com/Glossary_R Resolve An action or trait begins to resolve when its sequence of effect activation begins, assuming costs, targeting and conditions have been met. It stops resolving when its sequence of effect activation has ended, even if the application of some effects has been delayed.

Let's take a look at Hachigoro's action.

Reaction: If you are attacking, after armies at Hachigoro's battlefield engage: -- after armies engage means we are now in the combat segment. You may target one of the Defender's units, move it to Hachigoro's battlefield, and straighten it. -- this is the move effect that allows Muhito to react You have the first opportunity to take a Battle action or pass this battle. -- This is an additional effect that Changes The Sequence of Taking Battle Actions.

You do not have to actually take the action to resolve it, merely by being granted first dibs in the normal combat segment sequence resolves it. Remember that other players should still be able to react to the same point of time that Hachigoro reacted.

Things would now go about this way, the right way as I see it.

Lion Hachigoro reacts to engaging, moves in First Muhito and making Lion player the first person to be able to perform a battle action instead of the defender. First Muhito has moved in so he takes his reaction. Scorpion player gets an additional battle action and takes it. We now go back to the reaction part where we can react to engaging the battle. Crane Hachigoro reacts to engaging making him the first person to be able to perform a battle action instead of the Lion player. Second Muhito has moved in and takes his reaction Scorpion player gets an additional battle action and takes it. Crane now gets to perform the "first" battle action. Player to the left of Crane goes next (not necessarily the Lion player)

Sorry to throw out another one of these, but with regards to http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=66805&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a . . .

To repeat the general scenario: Akodo Hachigoro assigns to attack. Attacker chooses Hachigoro's battlefield. Attacker player uses Hachigoro's reaction, targeting a copy of Bayushi Muhito controlled by the Defender. Muhito moves in to the current battlefield. Defender uses Muhito reaction. What happens?

In the previous posts, it has been answered that the sequence of events is:

1) Armies engage, Attacking player reacts with Hachigoro moving Muhito. 1a) Defender reacts with Muhito, "securing" an additional Battle action. Hachigoro "secures" first Battle Action or Pass option. 2) Hachigoro's Reaction finishes resolving, so Defender takes the additional Battle action. 3) Other reactions to Engaging... 4) Decide who gets the first regular opportunity to play or pass - because of Hachigoro, this is the Attacker. 5) Attacker has his first regular Battle action opportunity. 6) Defender has his first regular Battle action opportunity.

However, I am not sure why the Defender is able to take an additional battle action. A Battle action may be taken only during the Combat Segment. Within an Attack Phase, the players go through a Declaration Segment, an Infantry Maneuvers Segment, and the Cavalry Maneuvers Segment. Then, the Attacker moves on to choosing a battlefield. "Armies engage" indicates the point in time where the Attacker chooses a particular battlefield. Therefore, it appears to me that "after armies engage" occurs at a point in time before the Combat Segment for that battlefield has begun (in a sequence, reactions that occur "after step X" occur prior to step X+1). If it isn't the Combat Segment yet, then it is not legal to take a Battle action. This would not technically affect the above-listed sequence, but would lead me to believe that the Defender's opportunity to take a Battle action would be meaningless because no Battle action could legally be taken.

Thanks.

"Armies engage" indicates the point in time where the Attacker chooses a particular battlefield. Therefore, it appears to me that "after armies engage" occurs at a point in time before the Combat Segment for that battlefield has begun.

No, the phrase "armies engage" indicates the time point at which the Combat Segment begins, per Battles, Choose battlefield (emphasis added).

Engaging is the time point at which the battle, and the Combat Segment, both begin. Specifically [...] things that are triggered “after engaging” do occur in and during the battle. [...] The phrase “armies engage” only indicates this time point.

Hachigoro's Reaction is taken after armies engage, thus after the Combat Segment has begun, so Muhito's controler can legally take an additional Battle action after this Reaction has resolved.

Subject: Akodo Hachigoro vs. Bayushi Muhito

AkodoGilador wrote:

--- Lion and Crane alliance attack Scorpion In any given Attack Phase, only one player is the Attacker, and only one player is the Defender. Other players are allies, if they are involved at all. Their units may be attacking or defending, or in attacking or defending armies, but the players are attacking or defending allies. --- Only one of the Lion and Crane players is the Attacker; only that player can use Hachigoro's Reaction.

Alex

end quote

What? Does this also mean My Utaku Yu Pan's battle maidens don't get +1F bonus while attacking if I am just the ally who happens to be on the Attacker's side? Because seriously that's un-intuitive! There is no mention of "Attacker" on Hachigoro.