Otomo Sensei, Kuro Sensei (L5R rules board)

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 7 February 2008

Otomo Sensei All Clans. Sensei All cards that would go to your discard pile are instead permanently discarded from play. Reaction: When a player searches for and gets a card from his or her deck or discard pile, discard from play a card from your hand to discard the player's card from play.

Kuro Sensei Lion. Mantis. Monk. Phoenix Toturi's Army Sensei Your personalities may refuse challenges,[sic] that are normally unrefusable. Your personalities will not issue challenges. If one of your personalities refuses a challenge with no given penalty for refusal, you lose 3 honor and the personality becomes dishonored.

Defensive Duty This cards may only be played by the Defender. You may play this card in a battle in which you have no units. Battle : Search your Dynasty deck for a Personality card and put it face up in the Province, discarding any cards already in that Province. Raise the Province's Strength by the Personality's Force. Discard the Personality when the battle ends.

The Steel Gardens of the Kenshinzen Reaction: After a duel ends that you won: Take a legal Limited, Open, or Battle action. Battle: Once per battle, even if your Stronghold is bowed, target and bow a Duelist you control: Target a Personality opposing him. Your Duelist challenges the Personality. He must move home and become Dishonored as costs to refuse.

Here are a few questions: 1. When exactly does Otomo Sensei force my opponent to discard? Does the searched card ever go to my opponent's hand, before it is discarded?

2. How would subsequent effects be affected if a searched card is discarded from play. For example, would Defensive Duty still increase my province strength even if the personality searched is discarded by Otomo Sensei?

3. How does Kuro Sensei affect refusable challenges when costs to refuse cannot be paid (i.e. a dishonored personality challenged with The Steel Gardens of the Kenshinzen's battle action)?

Martin Lund (rules official), 11 February 2008

1. When exactly does Otomo Sensei force my opponent to discard? Does the searched card ever go to my opponent's hand, before it is discarded?

After he selected the card from the deck, before anything else happens. It never gets to his or her hand. It also isn't Discarded. "Discarded from play," on some old cards like this one really means, "removed from the game," in modern wordings and rules.

On: Otomo Sensei, Kuro Sensei

2. How would subsequent effects be affected if a searched card is discarded from play. For example, would Defensive Duty still increase my province strength even if the personality searched is discarded by Otomo Sensei?

You could still get the Province Strength boost. Use the last known value of the card before it was removed from the game. You will not, however, ever put it in your Province or need to discard a card in that Province. You obviously will not need to discard the Personality either.

On: Otomo Sensei, Kuro Sensei, Defensive Duty

3. How does Kuro Sensei affect refusable challenges when costs to refuse cannot be paid (i.e. a dishonored personality challenged with The Steel Gardens of the Kenshinzen's battle action)?

If there is a listed option to refuse the challenge, Kuro Sensei has no effect on the challenge - even if you can't pay the cost of refusal.

On: Otomo Sensei, Kuro Sensei