A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 5 February 2008
Regarding Wardens + Houhou from a while back:
The reason given previously was that "enters play without gaining honor" doesn't apply only to the Dynasty phase. In fact, I couldn't even ask the question without supposing that to be true in advance, so it didn't really help to answer the question. (i.e. if that phrase did apply only to Dynasty, Wardens would never be able to attach in the first place) Also, you point out that Wardens makes no mention of source for the honor, a point which I grant, but still doesn't seem pertinent. In particular, why am I waiting until the end of the action to prevent myself from taking it when a perfectly good trigger already exists midway through it?
1) Houhou entering play and the 3 honor are two entirely separate effects, with a period interposed between them. To quote the CR:
"If mandatory costs and required targeting have been met, activate the action’s effects in order (see Effects, Order of Effects). If not, the action does not resolve.
Effects of an action are independent. If any effect is negated, does not happen, or fails to occur (for example, bowing an already bowed Personality, or moving him to a location he was already in), the other effects still happen, and the action is still legal. [ADDED Oct 17 2007]"
Given the nature of action parsing, you should be able to see why I'm looking for a more thorough explanation, no? I wouldn't have bothered asking the question if Houhou was worded "Bring her into play, paying 4 less Gold and gaining 3 Honor." At least in that case, the honor gain is arguably bound to the entering play effect. As it stands, they're two entirely different effects that aren't conjoined. If any sort of blind-card ruling exists, I don't see why I'm looking ahead in an action to prevent myself from taking a Reaction with an immediately valid trigger. The personality enters play -without netting honor- in much the same way as a person re-entering play because of the card Will. We aren't arguing that Wardens can't react to Will, are we?
2) Even if we were inclined to liken this to a Dynasty phase entering-play honor gain, that happens in advance of the personality entering play, so there's no question of Wardens' function at that point. When the personality enters play during Dynasty, an honor gain has clearly already happened.
3) Further proof, according to the CR:
"Effects occur in the order they are written. All effects are separate, even if joined by the word "and." ... EXCEPTION: Phrases modifying effects may come after the effect’s text, but are applied at the same time as the effect. Such phrases will directly refer to the effect, increasing or reducing its restrictions or scope. Modifying phrases refer to the immediately previous effect text, unless they explicitly refer to another effect or to multiple effects. Modifying phrases that refer to multiple effects refer to all relevant effects in that trait or ability."
I'm not seeing any references to the entering play effect in the honor gain effect. It seems fairly unmodified. Am I misunderstanding this? Can it be explained with just a smidge greater detail?
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 5 February 2008
Regarding Wardens + Houhou from a while back:
The reason given previously was that "enters play without gaining honor" doesn't apply only to the Dynasty phase. In fact, I couldn't even ask the question without supposing that to be true in advance, so it didn't really help to answer the question. (i.e. if that phrase did apply only to Dynasty, Wardens would never be able to attach in the first place) Also, you point out that Wardens makes no mention of source for the honor, a point which I grant, but still doesn't seem pertinent. In particular, why am I waiting until the end of the action to prevent myself from taking it when a perfectly good trigger already exists midway through it?
1) Houhou entering play and the 3 honor are two entirely separate effects, with a period interposed between them. To quote the CR:
"If mandatory costs and required targeting have been met, activate the action’s effects in order (see Effects, Order of Effects). If not, the action does not resolve.
Effects of an action are independent. If any effect is negated, does not happen, or fails to occur (for example, bowing an already bowed Personality, or moving him to a location he was already in), the other effects still happen, and the action is still legal. [ADDED Oct 17 2007]"
Given the nature of action parsing, you should be able to see why I'm looking for a more thorough explanation, no? I wouldn't have bothered asking the question if Houhou was worded "Bring her into play, paying 4 less Gold and gaining 3 Honor." At least in that case, the honor gain is arguably bound to the entering play effect. As it stands, they're two entirely different effects that aren't conjoined. If any sort of blind-card ruling exists, I don't see why I'm looking ahead in an action to prevent myself from taking a Reaction with an immediately valid trigger. The personality enters play -without netting honor- in much the same way as a person re-entering play because of the card Will. We aren't arguing that Wardens can't react to Will, are we?
2) Even if we were inclined to liken this to a Dynasty phase entering-play honor gain, that happens in advance of the personality entering play, so there's no question of Wardens' function at that point. When the personality enters play during Dynasty, an honor gain has clearly already happened.
3) Further proof, according to the CR:
"Effects occur in the order they are written. All effects are separate, even if joined by the word "and." ... EXCEPTION: Phrases modifying effects may come after the effect’s text, but are applied at the same time as the effect. Such phrases will directly refer to the effect, increasing or reducing its restrictions or scope. Modifying phrases refer to the immediately previous effect text, unless they explicitly refer to another effect or to multiple effects. Modifying phrases that refer to multiple effects refer to all relevant effects in that trait or ability."
I'm not seeing any references to the entering play effect in the honor gain effect. It seems fairly unmodified. Am I misunderstanding this? Can it be explained with just a smidge greater detail?
The arguments are understood, as they were before. The ruling has not changed. We will let you know if they do, which is possible.
Zen Faulkes (rules official), 5 February 2008
Promised we'd let you know if things changed.
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=57738&start=275#p840840
Glossary: Honor
When something checks to see whether a card has entered play "without gaining Honor," this is the same as checking whether any Honor has been gained for the card entering play (see Rules Glossary, "For".) Specifically, Honor gains that are contingent on the card entering play, including the rulebook Dynasty phase honor gain for aligned Personalities, mean the card has entered play "gaining Honor," unless the Honor gain was reduced to zero or negated. However, Honor gains that only come from the same action or trait that brought the card into play, without being contingent on its entering play, do not mean the card has entered play "gaining Honor." [ADDED February 5 2008]