Tsuruchi Etsui exp, Tsuruchi Etsui exp2

This question is regarding Tsuruchi Etsui Experienced, who has a trait that reads:

Tsuruchi Etsui Experienced's trait says: Once per game, after Etsui enters play or overlays: You may target a Personality. Until the end of the game, he cannot assign or move to battlefields unless Etsui is bowed or out of play.

I buy Tsuruchi Etsui Experienced, and target a Personality (say, Hida Kuon) in play.

I then overlay onto him Tsuruchi Etsui Experienced 2.

As long as Tsuruchi Etsui Experienced 2 remains in play and unbowed, will Kuon's controller be able to assign or move him to battles?

Regarding this : viewtopic.php?f=59&t=64251

Etsui XP clearly states in it's game text : Until the end of the game, he cannot assign or move to battlefields unless Etsui is bowed or out of play.

The card text refers to this copy of the card, not anything else (because if it refers to any copy of Etsui, that would work with Etsui non experienced, and would make all self referenced cards acting weird)

Rules in the CR about overlays says : The underlying card is out of play, but does not leave play. (For instance, it does not benefit from effects that would give it abilities if it was in play, another player would not gain Honor for destroying it in battle resolution, and Reactions to its leaving play can not be taken.)

So the copy of Etsui that refers to itself is out of play, so the ongoing effect should no longer apply per Etsui XP game text.

Am I missing something?

Regarding here: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=64251

From Rules http://rules.l5r.com/Physically_marked_ ... Overlaying :

If the overlaying card is somehow lost, the underlying card reappears but does not enter play. There has only been a change to the same card. Likewise, an overlaying card is not entering play even if it comes from an out-of-play area, and if it is somehow put in an out of play area while the underlying card remains, this is not leaving play.

The stack has the overlaying card’s title, stats, keywords, traits, and abilities, and any other feature the game needs to check is based on the overlaying card. The stack also inherits the underlying card’s base abilities, including ones that have been removed in the course of play. This is not considered an ability gain. The inherited ability on the new card is the same copy, and remembers whether it has been used. However, in the process of inheriting, if the overlaying card has a different title than the underlying one, references in abilities to the card’s own title are changed to the new title, similar to what happens when an ability is copied. The underlying card’s attachments, tokens, and game state, including ongoing effects, also apply to the new stack, but this does not transfer or attach anything, or begin or end any game state on a card. Specifically, existing bonuses and penalties to the underlying card’s stats will transfer to the overlaying card.

So the anything that looks for Tsuruchi Etsui exp1 with the overlay will look for Tsuruchi Etsui exp2

The ongoing effect look for Tsuruchi Etsui, due the Nature of the Overlay the exp1 changed to exp 2 but they still are exp1 for everything because because the trait will adapt by the rule to check for the stack card in question.

Even if the name changed the overlay rules adapt everything to the new card.

So i ask you guys to recheck teh link above.

Thanks for the answer (regarding this entry : viewtopic.php?f=59&t=64251&p=825395#p825395), it generates a new question for me :

Etsui XP trait says it ends when it is out of play. If I understand correctly, this is a reference to this specific physical copy of Etsui, not any card named Etsui, but this one specificaly.

The overlay rules says the underlying card is considered out of play, by your ruling, Etsui ongoing effect continue.

So if I follow this reasoning, the new "merged" Etsui XP/Etsui XP2 is considered the same physical copy as the card Etsui XP in regards of his trait, that's the only way to have the ongoing trait still in effect and be consistant with the sefl referenced card rules and the duration of Etsui XP trait.

So now, what happens when a trait states "while XX is in play" and that cards is overlaid? XX is still in play if I follow the "merged = same physical copy" line of reasoning.

Thanks for explaining this specific point regarding physicalk copy, merged copies and "while XX is in play" interaction.

(If this question is more for the rules troubleshooting I'll move it there, but as it's a following of a current ruling, I felt it appropriate for the rules forum)