A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 5 September 2007
Recently, it's been ruled that a Personality currently suffering a Chi penalty from the Obsidian Dragon can be killed from receiving a further Chi penalty that brings him below 1. In other words, the Obsidian Dragon's penalty will not re-calculate itself to stay true to its own minimum when another Chi penalty enters the picture. This is reflected in its wiki entry: "A Personality's Chi can be reduced to 0C by Chi penalties from sources other than Obsidian Dragon."
There has been some discrepancy and confusion over the ruling lately, which I stepped into the middle of quite a bit here and in the preceeding links. This resulted in a change (bolded) to another point of the Dragon's wiki entry thus:
"Obsidian Dragon's Chi penalty will be reduced if it plus other current penalties would result in a Personality having less than 1C. This is calculated only once and will not change later."
However, I realized that the bolded statement is not neccessarily true, and that brought me to further realize that the crux of the confusion lies in a deficiency in the Comprehensive Rules themselves. The Obsidian Dragon's penalty is a fluctuating penalty, one that IS recalculated with changes in game state. However, the CR poorly defines fluctuating bonuses/penalities, only mentioning them in the stats section under exceptions to what constitutes a bonus or penalty (a fluctuation does not count as a bonus or penalty occuring, just a change to an existing one).
So, one must wonder in conclusion, is the current ruling even correct? To what stimuli do fluctuating bonuses and penalties respond? In the case of the Dragon, whether the receiver of its penalty opposes the Dragon and what the current value of receiver's PH will inarguably cause a fluctuation. But is the Dragon's penalty's minimum then reapplied when it fluctuates? Should violation of that minimum due to additional Chi penalties cause a fluctuation? There are presently no clear answers in the CR.
I am cross-posting these questions in the CR Troubleshooting thread, for fear that lack of thorough communication will lead to further confusion. Thanks to everyone for all your time and efforts in sorting this matter out.
Martin Lund (rules official), 5 September 2007
To what stimuli do fluctuating bonuses and penalties respond?
The changes in the number they reference for their penalty. The example given in the rules is one where someone has +1F for each Samurai in play. When a Samurai is destroyed, the bonus fluctuates - adjusting downward by one from +3F for 3 Samurai to +2F for 2 remaining Samurai.
As noted here.
In the case of the Dragon, whether the receiver of its penalty opposes the Dragon and what the current value of receiver's PH will inarguably cause a fluctuation.
Not quite true. The current PH changing can cause a fluctuation. Opposing / not opposing status does not cause fluctuation. It ends or begins anew the effect itself, as per the rules on Continuous Effects:
Additionally, if a continuous effect has a condition on it the effect begins at any point when the condition is met and the relevant cards are in play. Example: "Your Samurai have +1F while they are opposed." In this example, the effect on each Samurai begins when that Samurai becomes opposed.
Continuous effects from cards upon other cards normally end when one (or both) of the two cards leaves play or when the effect's condition is no longer met. In the example, the effect on each Samurai ends when that Samurai is no longer opposed.
That covers that.
But is the Dragon's penalty's minimum then reapplied when it fluctuates?
I'd say yes, since it is basically a restriction on the actually size of the penalty applied. It really isn't a minimum so much as a penalty maximum - kind of a weird hedge-case.
Should violation of that minimum due to additional Chi penalties cause a fluctuation?
No. Each bonus or penalty value needs to be calculated and committed in the order it was introduced to the Personality. That's really the only perspective any effect can reference when looking for the current value of a card. It shouldn't be taking into account its own effects before they are calculated (causality), nor any subsequent effects (which might be dependent on the prior effects).
Take, for example, a Terrain that says, "All your Samurai with 4 or more Force have +2 Force." If one of your 4F (base) Samurai is at the Battlefield and has 6F currently, when he gets a -2F penalty, he doesn't suddenly lose the Terrain's bonus. If he dropped to 3F, though, it would end the Terrain's effect and he's continue dropping down to 1 Force.
Stat bonuses and penalty effects always need to be calculated as a series of sequential operations of things get screwy.
There are presently no clear answers in the CR.
No, there really isn't. All that is said is that in Step A of determining the current value of a Stat you apply all bonuses and penalties. It should probably say, "in the order they were received," or something. I'll talk to the Rules Team about it.