Gidayu Sensei

L5R CCG Rules board, 3 October 2014 to 8 October 2014

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 3 October 2014

Gidayu Sensei states:

Interrupt, w: One of the action's Ranged Attacks may be combined with one Ranged Attack action from your target card in any unit.

The comprehensive rules state: Combining: A way to use similar actions from cards in the same unit to create a larger strength effect. Fear effects, Ranged Attacks, and Melee Attacks can each be combined, but only with other effects of the same kind (that is, Ranged and Melee Attacks cannot combine with each other, etc.) Combining starts with an original action that creates an attack effect from a card in a unit. As an Interrupt to that action, the player may use an ability from another card in the same unit that is appropriate to the phase and that creates another attack effect of the same kind. The player pays that ability’s costs, then resolves its action’s effects, with one change: instead of creating a separate attack effect, each of those actions’ relevant attack effects adds its own strength (with any modifications) to the strength of the original attack effect. The original attack effect may only target a card that it, as well as each of the combining actions, could target. All other characteristics of the attack effect come from the original. You may combine more than one attack effect with the same initial action. Because only the original effect actually targets the card, a reduction or increase to the effect’s strength that depends on a particular card being targeted only reduced the total combined attack (for example, “Ranged Attacks targeting this card have -2 strength”). However, an effect that reduces or increases all attack effects will change the strengths of the combining effects before they are added together (“Ranged Attacks from cards at this battlefield have -2 strength).

Ranged Attack: A Ranged Attack represents a military effect that destroys at a distance, such as archers’ arrows or a magical fiery bolt. “Ranged X Attack”, where X stands for a number, is shorthand for the text “Target a Follower or a Personality without Followers in the current enemy army. If its Force is equal to or less than X, destroy it.” A Ranged Attack action is one with a Ranged Attack effect.

Interrupt actions are announced during a non-Interrupt action – either the Interrupt’s player’s or another player’s – at the point after costs are paid and before the action’s effects start to resolve. The other action is suspended while the Interrupt’s player goes through the sequence of steps in the Interrupt action; then it resumes. An Interrupt may not be played to another Interrupt action.

Do the rules for interrupt and combining ranged attack actions apply to the section I bolded in Gidayu Sensei's text? Meaning, can I use Gidayu Sensei to combine one Ranged attack from one unit or strategy with an action from another unit which is the result of a combined ranged attack?

Parsing the rules it looks like this: a. A strategy or card in a unit creates a ranged attack. b. Player interrupts with Gidayu Sensei who grants him one Ranged Attack action. b1. The sequence of steps in the granted Ranged attack action may include combining ranged attacks from multiple cards in the same unit. b2. The total effect from the combined ranged attack that is granted by the Ranged Action on the sensei is added to the original attack as an interrupt.

In effect, Gidayu grants you the opportunity to have a nested effect within the interrupt window, otherwise the card would not state a Ranged Attack action, but simply a ranged attack. Do you see anything wrong with the above logic?

Alex Jones (rules official), 7 October 2014

Gidayu Sensei states:

Interrupt, w: One of the action's Ranged Attacks may be combined with one Ranged Attack action from your target card in any unit.

The comprehensive rules state: Combining: A way to use similar actions from cards in the same unit to create a larger strength effect. Fear effects, Ranged Attacks, and Melee Attacks can each be combined, but only with other effects of the same kind (that is, Ranged and Melee Attacks cannot combine with each other, etc.) Combining starts with an original action that creates an attack effect from a card in a unit. As an Interrupt to that action, the player may use an ability from another card in the same unit that is appropriate to the phase and that creates another attack effect of the same kind. The player pays that ability’s costs, then resolves its action’s effects, with one change: instead of creating a separate attack effect, each of those actions’ relevant attack effects adds its own strength (with any modifications) to the strength of the original attack effect. The original attack effect may only target a card that it, as well as each of the combining actions, could target. All other characteristics of the attack effect come from the original. You may combine more than one attack effect with the same initial action. Because only the original effect actually targets the card, a reduction or increase to the effect’s strength that depends on a particular card being targeted only reduced the total combined attack (for example, “Ranged Attacks targeting this card have -2 strength”). However, an effect that reduces or increases all attack effects will change the strengths of the combining effects before they are added together (“Ranged Attacks from cards at this battlefield have -2 strength).

Ranged Attack: A Ranged Attack represents a military effect that destroys at a distance, such as archers’ arrows or a magical fiery bolt. “Ranged X Attack”, where X stands for a number, is shorthand for the text “Target a Follower or a Personality without Followers in the current enemy army. If its Force is equal to or less than X, destroy it.” A Ranged Attack action is one with a Ranged Attack effect.

Interrupt actions are announced during a non-Interrupt action – either the Interrupt’s player’s or another player’s – at the point after costs are paid and before the action’s effects start to resolve. The other action is suspended while the Interrupt’s player goes through the sequence of steps in the Interrupt action; then it resumes. An Interrupt may not be played to another Interrupt action.

Do the rules for interrupt and combining ranged attack actions apply to the section I bolded in Gidayu Sensei's text? Meaning, can I use Gidayu Sensei to combine one Ranged attack from one unit or strategy with an action from another unit which is the result of a combined ranged attack?

Parsing the rules it looks like this: a. A strategy or card in a unit creates a ranged attack. b. Player interrupts with Gidayu Sensei who grants him one Ranged Attack action. b1. The sequence of steps in the granted Ranged attack action may include combining ranged attacks from multiple cards in the same unit. b2. The total effect from the combined ranged attack that is granted by the Ranged Action on the sensei is added to the original attack as an interrupt.

In effect, Gidayu grants you the opportunity to have a nested effect within the interrupt window, otherwise the card would not state a Ranged Attack action, but simply a ranged attack. Do you see anything wrong with the above logic?

Interrupts cannot be Interrupted. Gidayu Sensei works like this:

1. You announce an action with a Ranged Attack effect (after consultation with the Rules Team, this can indeed be from a Strategy). 2. You pay its costs. 3. Interrupt round: a. You take (ie Announce, Pay for & Resolve) the action from Gidayu Sensei, targeting a card in any of your units (at the current battlefield). b. Your opponent passes. c. You take an action from the card you targeted in step 3a, as an Interrupt rather than as a Battle action. As per the rules for combining, its Ranged Attack effects are not targetted and applied, but its other effects are. d. Other Interrupts. 4. Resolve the original action, increasing one its Ranged Attack effects by the strength of the Ranged Attack effect from the action you took in step 3c.

A player, 8 October 2014

Interrupts cannot be Interrupted. Gidayu Sensei works like this:

1. You announce an action with a Ranged Attack effect (after consultation with the Rules Team, this can indeed be from a Strategy). 2. You pay its costs. 3. Interrupt round: a. You take (ie Announce, Pay for & Resolve) the action from Gidayu Sensei, targeting a card in any of your units (at the current battlefield). b. Your opponent passes. c. You take an action from the card you targeted in step 3a, as an Interrupt rather than as a Battle action. As per the rules for combining, its Ranged Attack effects are not targetted and applied, but its other effects are. d. Other Interrupts. 4. Resolve the original action, increasing one its Ranged Attack effects by the strength of the Ranged Attack effect from the action you took in step 3c.

I agree with the step sequence, however I disagree on step 3c. Nowhere on Gidayu Sensei is written as an interrupt.

Instead, on the card is written: Interrupt, w: One of the action's Ranged Attacks may be combined with one Ranged Attack action from your target card in any unit.

If your intend is to confine Gidayu to just adding one ranged attack from a specific card in a unit, then you need to issue technical errata, as you did for Haruna. Otherwise, if we go by the rulebook, the wording on the sensei allows for a nested action, whose results (combined ranged attack) is added to the original. After all:

Cards vs. rules: If the text of any card contradicts these Comprehensive Rules, follow the card text, not the rules. Something that changes one aspect of a rule does not by itself change any other aspects of the rule.

I understand this is nitpicking, but it does change the effectiveness of the sensei for certain very marginal cases. (Frankly, I have used the sensei only in cases of personalities of upward of 12F, which is not that common. So much so, that I consider not playing the card anyway.)

Thanks for taking time to look into this anyway.

Alex Jones (rules official), 8 October 2014

I agree with the step sequence, however I disagree on step 3c. Nowhere on Gidayu Sensei is written as an interrupt.

Instead, on the card is written: Interrupt, w: One of the action's Ranged Attacks may be combined with one Ranged Attack action from your target card in any unit.

If your intend is to confine Gidayu to just adding one ranged attack from a specific card in a unit, then you need to issue technical errata, as you did for Haruna. Otherwise, if we go by the rulebook, the wording on the sensei allows for a nested action, whose results (combined ranged attack) is added to the original. After all:

I understand this is nitpicking, but it does change the effectiveness of the sensei for certain very marginal cases. (Frankly, I have used the sensei only in cases of personalities of upward of 12F, which is not that common. So much so, that I consider not playing the card anyway.)

Thanks for taking time to look into this anyway.

The rules for combining attacks tell you that to combine an attack with other attacks, you take those other attacks as Interrupts. Gidayu Sensei does not change this.

Alex Jones (rules official), 8 October 2014

Is the problem that you're only reading the word "combine" in the sense that you combine the additional actions with the original? The rules use the word symmetrically: you combine the original attack with the additional attacks, and you combine the additional attacks with the original.

Gidayu Sensei's Interrupt is taken in response to a Battle action. This action, using the wording of the Combining Rules, is the original action, and the Sensei's action allows you to use an ability with a Ranged Attack effect, on a card in any of your units at the battlefield, as a combining action. This action is, like all such combining actions, taken as an Interrupt: no nested actions are required.

Alex