Can Haruna use her ability to use Second City Market to fetch any Markest or Port for free?
Yoritomo Haruna & Second City Market
A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
Can Haruna use her ability to use Second City Market to fetch any Markest or Port for free?
Yes, you may.
REVERSED: See below.
Please could you give more detail about the mechanics of the interaction described in this post.
Yoritomo Haruna allows a player to use the ability on Second City Market ignoring costs. As far as I can tell, according to the comprehensive rules the ability on Second City Market now reads:
"Open, [bow],[*]: Search your Dynasty deck for a Market or Port. Recruit it (bowed). Destroy this Holding."
'Recruit' is of course shorthand for referencing the effects of the Recruit action in the rules (page 37), so surely an expanded version of the above ability is:
"Open, [bow],[*]: Search your Dynasty deck for a Market or Port. [opportunity to pay gold if desired as per the rulebook] Bring into play a face-up Personality or Holding from your Province with Gold Cost equal to the amount you paid, paying 2 more Gold if the Personality has a Clan Alignment but does not have your Clan Alignment. (bowed). Destroy this Holding."
We know that we a recruiting a holding and I assume that we replace 'province' with 'temporary holding area' as we have searched our deck for the card, so:
"Open, [bow],[*]: Search your Dynasty deck for a Market or Port. Bring [it] into play from your temporary holding area with Gold Cost equal to the amount you paid (bowed). Destroy this Holding."
The ability still seems to require a check of the holding's gold cost against the amount of gold paid. How does Yoritomo Haruna's ability allow a player to ignore it as she only lets a player ignore costs, which are paying gold and bowing? This applies to Iweko Seiken, who also seemingly won't be able to recruit a personality.
A related question is what happens when Second City Market is destroyed in a province? Does the province immediately refill? If so, does Yoritomo Haruna simply fail to discard the Second City Market? Is the province refilled a second time? What happens to the card that refilled the province after the Second City Market was destroyed?
Following up on this:
http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=109265
The comprehensive rules say this: Sometimes, as with Equip (p. 36), “Recruit” is used as an effect in card text. This means that the effects of the Recruit action are activated, and the card’s Gold Cost is checked against the amount paid for the original action. If the original action did not give the opportunity to pay Gold, then before the card enters play, its Gold Cost must be paid or the entering play fails.'
Does this not mean I must still pay the gold cost of the targeted holding when it enters play? Or are you saying that the 'ignoring costs' piece of Haruna's text applies not only to the ability on Second City Market, but also to the Recruit part of the effects of that ability?
This seems abusively powerful and would allow a turn 1 flip of 2x Haruna and 2 x SCM (as an extreme example) to allow me to start turn 2 with Merchant Atoll x2 in play.
Following up on this:
http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=109265
The comprehensive rules say this: Sometimes, as with Equip (p. 36), “Recruit” is used as an effect in card text. This means that the effects of the Recruit action are activated, and the card’s Gold Cost is checked against the amount paid for the original action. If the original action did not give the opportunity to pay Gold, then before the card enters play, its Gold Cost must be paid or the entering play fails.'
Does this not mean I must still pay the gold cost of the targeted holding when it enters play? Or are you saying that the 'ignoring costs' piece of Haruna's text applies not only to the ability on Second City Market, but also to the Recruit part of the effects of that ability?
This seems abusively powerful and would allow a turn 1 flip of 2x Haruna and 2 x SCM (as an extreme example) to allow me to start turn 2 with Merchant Atoll x2 in play.
The cost of Second City Market's action is the cost of the Holding to be Recruited, but Haruna says to ignore costs: the Holding essentially enters play for free.
The sentence, If the original action did not give the opportunity to pay Gold, then before the card enters play, its Gold Cost must be paid or the entering play fails. in the Comprehensive Rules is only there to support Open/Legacy: all Ivory Edition cards that create Recruit effects give the player that opportunity to pay gold.
REVERSAL: See below.
On: Merchant Atoll
I think that my question in this thread may be been misinterpreted.
I am not disputing that the costs are ignored; I am saying that the comprehensive rules (page 37) seems to state that bringing the holding into play is a conditional effect, the condition being a check of gold paid vs the holdings gold cost stat.
"Bring into play...with Gold Cost equal to the amount you paid".
Even if the cost is ignored (no gold needs to be paid) the check still seems to stand. Does her ability allow the player to ignore this check, and if so, how? Does everything that ignore gold costs also set the relevant gold cost stat to 0 in order to pass the check? Does this check fall into the cost mechanic somehow? Does the ability on Second City Market modify more of the recruit ability than I realise?
Please can you also answer the associated questions with regards to the Second City Market being destroyed in a province.
I think that my question in this thread may be been misinterpreted.
I am not disputing that the costs are ignored; I am saying that the comprehensive rules (page 37) seems to state that bringing the holding into play is a conditional effect, the condition being a check of gold paid vs the holdings gold cost stat.
"Bring into play...with Gold Cost equal to the amount you paid".
Even if the cost is ignored (no gold needs to be paid) the check still seems to stand. Does her ability allow the player to ignore this check, and if so, how? Does everything that ignore gold costs also set the relevant gold cost stat to 0 in order to pass the check? Does this check fall into the cost mechanic somehow? Does the ability on Second City Market modify more of the recruit ability than I realise?
Please can you also answer the associated questions with regards to the Second City Market being destroyed in a province.
Under Discussion
Economic Open, bow: Target a Market or Port card in your Province. You may either use one of its abilities ignoring costs, produce 2 Gold, or target your Personality and give him +2F, or +3F if he is Spider Clan. Discard the card and refill the Province face-up.
If I want to use the ability on a holding, how does the process work?
a. Announce Haruna's open b. pay cost: bow Haruna c. Resolution c1. Target the market/port (What happens here?) cx. Discard and refill
Also, taking in consideration the ruling with Open Emotion, does she has any restriction as to what kind of ability can she use? Can she use (for example), the battle action of Second City Harbor to give force penalties as open?
So I have a few questions about how Haruna's ability works, how Second City Market interacts with it, and in general just the timing aspects involved.
Firstly, is there some particular reason why Haruna's ability is not worded like every other Ivory-legal similar effect (A Champion's Tactics, Death From Above, Death of the Winds, and Discovering the Daisho of Water for just a few examples), all of which are actions that instruct (or give you the chance to) use an ability in their text, but have you actually announce the ability in a granted additional action. In other words, what functional differences are there between the way Haruna is worded versus the other cards mentioned, and would this be a correct interaction/resolution of her action?
1.) Announce Haruna's ability and bow her as a cost. 2.) I target a Second City Market 3.) I choose her first option, so that I can use the SCMs open ability.
At this point, I believe the rest of Haruna's abilities resolution is effectively paused until SCM is done resolving.
4.) I announce SCMs open ability (noting that this is not taken as an action and cannot be interrupted/etc.), I get to ignore the costs per Haruna. 5.) I search my deck, and put a market or port holding into play bowed. 6.) The SCM is destroyed.
Now this can have one of two outcomes. The CR says destroy means to "remove a card from PLAY via an effect that specifically states to destroy it...cards normally go to their appropriate discard pile." Now Second City Market doesn't specifically say it can break that rule, but the cards' text is still telling you to do something not strictly allowed by the rules. So I could see an argument for the card staying or leaving in the province.
If it stays, the SCM's ability is done resolving, so you pick back up with the last part of Haruna's ability, discard the SCM from the province and refill the province face-up.
If it leaves the province, the province immediately refills with a facedown dynasty card. Then you resolve the last part of Haruna's ability, which attempts to discard the SCM and fails (as it is already in the discard pile). You then refill the province face-up, leaving you with a province that is holding a face-up AND face-down dynasty card.
Apologies for the wall of text, I just wanted to be as clear and specific as possible with (what I see as) the way these cards do/may work.
Thank you
So I have a few questions about how Haruna's ability works, how Second City Market interacts with it, and in general just the timing aspects involved.
Firstly, is there some particular reason why Haruna's ability is not worded like every other Ivory-legal similar effect (A Champion's Tactics, Death From Above, Death of the Winds, and Discovering the Daisho of Water for just a few examples), all of which are actions that instruct (or give you the chance to) use an ability in their text, but have you actually announce the ability in a granted additional action. In other words, what functional differences are there between the way Haruna is worded versus the other cards mentioned, and would this be a correct interaction/resolution of her action?
1.) Announce Haruna's ability and bow her as a cost. 2.) I target a Second City Market 3.) I choose her first option, so that I can use the SCMs open ability.
At this point, I believe the rest of Haruna's abilities resolution is effectively paused until SCM is done resolving.
4.) I announce SCMs open ability (noting that this is not taken as an action and cannot be interrupted/etc.), I get to ignore the costs per Haruna. 5.) I search my deck, and put a market or port holding into play bowed. 6.) The SCM is destroyed.
Now this can have one of two outcomes. The CR says destroy means to "remove a card from PLAY via an effect that specifically states to destroy it...cards normally go to their appropriate discard pile." Now Second City Market doesn't specifically say it can break that rule, but the cards' text is still telling you to do something not strictly allowed by the rules. So I could see an argument for the card staying or leaving in the province.
If it stays, the SCM's ability is done resolving, so you pick back up with the last part of Haruna's ability, discard the SCM from the province and refill the province face-up.
If it leaves the province, the province immediately refills with a facedown dynasty card. Then you resolve the last part of Haruna's ability, which attempts to discard the SCM and fails (as it is already in the discard pile). You then refill the province face-up, leaving you with a province that is holding a face-up AND face-down dynasty card.
Apologies for the wall of text, I just wanted to be as clear and specific as possible with (what I see as) the way these cards do/may work.
Thank you
Errata has been issued to Yoritomo Haruna.
Firstly, if you choose to use an ability of the target, you do so via an additional action. This is to follow the full action procedure, including allowing Interrupts. Note that, unless otherwise specified, additional actions must be appropriate to the phase, so you can only use Haruna to take an Open or, if it's your turn, Limited action.
Secondly, you only ignore the bow costs of the ability. This is to eliminate the undesirable interaction with Second City Market.
Note that the card is discarded before the additional action is taken, so any effects that destroy the Holding will fail.