A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
Oneiyara's battle action is used to challenge an enemy personality that has a follower attached. Oneiyara wins. Can the resulting Fear effect target the losing personality?
Oneiyara Iaijutsu Battle: Oneiyara challenges a target enemy Personality. After the duel, Fear equal to Oneiyara's Force that targets the loser.
Oneiyara Iaijutsu Battle: Oneiyara challenges a target enemy Personality. After the duel, Fear equal to Oneiyara's Force that targets the loser.
Tested Blade Battle, [Bow]: Fear equal to this Personality's Chi that may target a Personality with Followers
Oneiyara has a Tested Blade equipped
Can Tested Blade's fear effect interrupt his duel to increase the resulting fear by his chi? Can his duel interrupt the Tested Blade's Fear action to increase the Blade's fear by his force?
Under discussion
Can Tested Blade's fear effect interrupt his duel to increase the resulting fear by his chi?
Sort of. You interrupt the action that creates the duel, not the duel, but yes, it can be used that way. Only that you must announce the combining before you know who will win the duel, therefore maybe increasing the risk
Can his duel interrupt the Tested Blade's Fear action to increase the Blade's fear by his force?
I'm linking this to the other discussion about Oniyara
Regarding: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=108356#p1424634
Shouldn't the increase fail once it is determined that Oniyara is the target, because he's no legal target of a normal fear ability since he's not opposing the blade.
Hello,
As follow-up to this yet unanswered question: viewtopic.php?f=59&t=108336
Can we also get a reply about Oneiyara's own attachements ? I mean, what if he has a Follower himself and loses ?
While we're at it, since Fear's targeting is about an "enemy" card, Oneiyara may also be an illegal target of his own fear in case he loses, whether he has a Follower or not.
Thanks for the answer
This is already being considered in the discussion, but thank you
We're aware of those issues and we'll try to answer them all jointly once we reach a consensus.
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=108336
Has there been any movement on this? I am particularly interested in whether Oneiyara's fear can hit people with followers.
Is there any chance we can get an answer to that part even if the rest of it is still up in the air?
Oneiyara's battle action is used to challenge an enemy personality that has a follower attached. Oneiyara wins. Can the resulting Fear effect target the losing personality?
Oneiyara Iaijutsu Battle: Oneiyara challenges a target enemy Personality. After the duel, Fear equal to Oneiyara's Force that targets the loser.
After much discussion, the issue has been resolved thus:
According to the Comprehensive Rules, "Fear X" means "Target an enemy Follower or Personality without Followers and bow it if its Force is equal to or lower than X." However, Oneiyara's action exactly specifies the target, with no choice, so "Fear X targeting the loser" means, "Target the loser and bow it if its Force is equal to or lower than X."
That is, the whole clause "[your choice of] an enemy Follower or Personality without Followers" is replaced by "the loser".
Thus, any attempt to combine this Fear with another Fear effect will fail unless that Fear can also target the loser. For example, if you use a Tested Blade (attached to Oneiyara)'s action as a Battle action, Interrupt with Oneiyara's duel and win, the Tested Blade's Fear effect will be increased by Oneiyara's force; if you lose, the Fear effect will not be increased.
Following this topic : http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=108336&p=1427032&hilit=Oneiyara#p1427032
Alex Jones wrote:That is, the whole clause "[your choice of] an enemy Follower or Personality without Followers" is replaced by "the loser". Thus, any attempt to combine this Fear with another Fear effect will fail unless that Fear can also target the loser. For example, if you use a Tested Blade (attached to Oneiyara)'s action as a Battle action, Interrupt with Oneiyara's duel and win, the Tested Blade's Fear effect will be increased by Oneiyara's force; if you lose, the Fear effect will not be increased.
1/ What is the reason why "any attempt to combine this Fear with another Fear effect will fail"? Do you mean that it will be illegal to Interrupt with them because of the Good Faith Rule?
According to Combining rules (CR, p 45-46) the falling of the combined effect as a consequence of a target becoming illegal for this effect is not stated. There is only the obligation of a target which is legal for all combined attack effects :
Combining: [...]The original attack effect may only target a card that it, as well as each of the combining actions, could target. All other characteristics of the attack effect come from the original. You may combine more than one attack effect with the same initial action.
2/ So what about theses situations, if Oneiyara's Battle is combined with other Fear effects?
Example 1 : You use a Oneiyara's duel action as a Battle action, and Interrupt with Tested Blade (attached to Oneiyara)'s : - if you win, the Oneiyara's duel action Fear effect will be increased by Oneiyara's chi - if you lose, ... Tested Blade's Fear effect is combined with Oneiyara's duel action Fear effect, but it can only target an "enemy Follower or Personality".
Example 2 : You use a Oneiyara's duel action as a Battle action [no Follower attached anywhere], and Interrupt with Reinforced Parangu (attached to Oneiyara)'s : - if you win, the Oneiyara's duel action Fear effect will be increased by Reinforced Parangu's Fear 2. - if you lose, ... Reinforced Parangu's Fear effect is combined with Oneiyara's duel action Fear effect, but it can only target an "enemy Follower, or Personality without Followers".
Example 3 : Same of 2, but this time Oneiyara has an attached Follower.
According to the above quoted part of CR, it seems to me that if Oneiyara lose the duel, he would still not be a legal target for his own Fear effect in any of these situations, because the target has to be legally a legal target for the combined Fear effect, and that Oneiyara is not an "enemy" personality.
Thank you for clarifications.
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[Tested Blade] Battle, w: Fear equal to this Personality's Chi that may target a Personality with Followers (Bow a target enemy Follower or Personality with Force equal to or lower than the Fear's strength).
[Reinforced Parangu] Battle: Fear 2 (Bow a target enemy Follower, or Personality without Followers, with 2 or lower Force).
Following this topic : http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=108336&p=1427032&hilit=Oneiyara#p1427032
1/ What is the reason why "any attempt to combine this Fear with another Fear effect will fail"? Do you mean that it will be illegal to Interrupt with them because of the Good Faith Rule?
According to Combining rules (CR, p 45-46) the falling of the combined effect as a consequence of a target becoming illegal for this effect is not stated. There is only the obligation of a target which is legal for all combined attack effects :
2/ So what about theses situations, if Oneiyara's Battle is combined with other Fear effects?
Example 1 : You use a Oneiyara's duel action as a Battle action, and Interrupt with Tested Blade (attached to Oneiyara)'s : - if you win, the Oneiyara's duel action Fear effect will be increased by Oneiyara's chi - if you lose, ... Tested Blade's Fear effect is combined with Oneiyara's duel action Fear effect, but it can only target an "enemy Follower or Personality".
Example 2 : You use a Oneiyara's duel action as a Battle action [no Follower attached anywhere], and Interrupt with Reinforced Parangu (attached to Oneiyara)'s : - if you win, the Oneiyara's duel action Fear effect will be increased by Reinforced Parangu's Fear 2. - if you lose, ... Reinforced Parangu's Fear effect is combined with Oneiyara's duel action Fear effect, but it can only target an "enemy Follower, or Personality without Followers".
Example 3 : Same of 2, but this time Oneiyara has an attached Follower.
According to the above quoted part of CR, it seems to me that if Oneiyara lose the duel, he would still not be a legal target for his own Fear effect in any of these situations, because the target has to be legally a legal target for the combined Fear effect, and that Oneiyara is not an "enemy" personality.
Thank you for clarifications.
***************
[Tested Blade] Battle, w: Fear equal to this Personality's Chi that may target a Personality with Followers (Bow a target enemy Follower or Personality with Force equal to or lower than the Fear's strength).
[Reinforced Parangu] Battle: Fear 2 (Bow a target enemy Follower, or Personality without Followers, with 2 or lower Force).
1. The effects will fail because in general, the effect you are attempting to combine with (Tested Blade) cannot target Oneiyara. Therefore, he will only be hit by the strength of his Fear effect, which can target him specifically.
2. Example 1 - if you win, the Fear will be combined with Tested Blade and may only target an enemy Personality. If you lose, the Fear may only target Oneiyara, so the combining will fail and only the duel action's Fear will hit Oneiyara.
Example 2 - Same. If you win, combine as normal; if you lose, do not combine when you target Oneiyara.
Example 3 - Whether you win or lose, the combining of the Fear effect will fail as the Personality is not a legal target for the combining effect.