Otomo Sensei v. discard play

L5R CCG Rules board, 30 October 2013 to 3 November 2013

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 30 October 2013

I have a couple questions on what happens when Otomo Sensei tries to interact with specific effects or types of effects. Some of this was asked back in 2010 with no response.

Shiba You may play attachment cards from your discard pile as if they were in your hand.

Otomo cannot RFG cards from your hand. But these are also cards from your discard pile, yes? Can Otomo RFG cards you play via Shiba? Presumably the answer applies to other cards, like Kan'chek, with similar wording, and probably to Isawa Sezaru even though his shenanigans are based on the deck instead of the discard.

Chitik You may play Strategies in any player's discard pile. Their actions have the additional cost, "bow and dishonor Chitik," and cards played this way are removed from the game instead of being discarded when they would be discarded.

Is the answer different for cards like Chitik, that allow you to play cards directly from discard, but do not have you play them "as if they were in your hand"?

Alex Jones (rules official), 31 October 2013

I have a couple questions on what happens when Otomo Sensei tries to interact with specific effects or types of effects. Some of this was asked back in 2010 with no response.

Shiba You may play attachment cards from your discard pile as if they were in your hand.

Otomo cannot RFG cards from your hand. But these are also cards from your discard pile, yes? Can Otomo RFG cards you play via Shiba? Presumably the answer applies to other cards, like Kan'chek, with similar wording, and probably to Isawa Sezaru even though his shenanigans are based on the deck instead of the discard.

Chitik You may play Strategies in any player's discard pile. Their actions have the additional cost, "bow and dishonor Chitik," and cards played this way are removed from the game instead of being discarded when they would be discarded.

Is the answer different for cards like Chitik, that allow you to play cards directly from discard, but do not have you play them "as if they were in your hand"?

An effect that retrieves a card from a discard pile (or elsewhere) only involves "searching" if that effect explicitly says "search".

Thus, a Ring retrieved from the discard pile by Wisdom Gained can be removed from the game by Otomo Sensei, but not cards played using Shiba or Chitik, nor retrieved using Seeking the Truth.

A player, 31 October 2013

Original question

I don't understand your answer when confronted with the search definition from the rules.wiki.

SearchTo inspect a deck, or all cards in another area, in order to select one or more cards from it.

A player searching an area looks at the faces of all cards in it, keeping them as they were (face-up or face-down). He or she may look at all cards before deciding which ones to select, unless otherwise instructed by text (such as, "Put the first Ring you find into play.").

The player may choose to have a search fail; he or she need not retrieve a suitable card even if found. [ADDED 6 April 2012]

If an effect searches for a specific card (such as "Ring of Water") or card-type (such as "a Ring"), the player must show it if he chooses to retrieve it, to verify that he has retrieved the appropriate card or type, even if the search effect does not specify it is shown. [ADDED 6 April 2012]

All effects that search decks for cards also shuffle the deck after the found card (if any) leaves the deck. If the card is not found, the deck is still shuffled immediately after searching. If a card is found, but is not required to leave the deck after due to some optional effect, the deck and found card are shuffled after the optional effect resolves. Such shuffling is not an effect, but a mechanical requirement of the search process; for example, it cannot be negated.

If an effect directs a player to search for a card and do something with it (such as play it or put it into the hand), and that thing fails, the card is discarded instead.

My interpretation is that selecting a card from a group of cards to do something is searching and could therefore be affected by Otomo Sensei.

Sorry to ask again so soon but this will be a big deal for our fledgling Bigdeck group with 2 recursion Phanatix.

A player, 31 October 2013

Does this constitute a reversal of past rulings that pretty much everything that retrieves cards from the discard constitutes a search? See Civility, for example.

Brook Cunningham (rules official), 3 November 2013

Does this constitute a reversal of past rulings that pretty much everything that retrieves cards from the discard constitutes a search? See Civility, for example.

Yes, after much discussion and consideration behind the scenes, we have decided to reverse any previous standings upon Otomo Sensei.

The ruling above is the most current and stands as-is.