A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 28 February 2013
Greetings!
How will Creating Order interact with Fire Tokens (for example the one from Togashi Meiyu)? Will it negate the force bonus of the fire tokens or not?
Also, lets say i have 2 Togashi Meiyu and 2 Togashi Torazu (3 fire tokens each) and 2 Togashi Hogashi Hiroto (4 fire tokens Each) attacking my opponents last province. He Plays the card Warded Premises. Does the province break or all of my personalities' force are reduced to zero?
Creating Order Unique Battle/Open: Target one or two Personalities: Either negate all current and new Force bonuses and penalties on them from actions, or straighten their units
Togashi Meiyu Dragon Clan • Fire • Monk • Tattooed Reaction: After Meiyu enters play: Give her three +1F Fire tokens.
A player, 28 February 2013
How will Creating Order interact with Fire Tokens (for example the one from Togashi Meiyu)? Will it negate the force bonus of the fire tokens or not?
Meiyu's tokens come from actions. Therefore the force bonuses from the Fire tokens will be negated until the turn ends.
Also, lets say i have 2 Togashi Meiyu and 2 Togashi Torazu (3 fire tokens each) and 2 Togashi Hogashi Hiroto (4 fire tokens Each) attacking my opponents last province. He Plays the card Warded Premises. Does the province break or all of my personalities' force are reduced to zero?
Meiyu's, Hiroto's and Torazu's tokens come from actions, therefore the force bonuses from the Fire tokens will be negated while Warded Premises is in play. Your army has zero force.
A player, 28 February 2013
Greetings!
Regarding this http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=102070 I'm a little confused as to how this was ruled and would really appreciate some more detailed explanation please. Most of the the ruling about non-card tokens were from a different edition so some things may have probably changed.
1.) Stating that "Meiyu's tokens come from actions. Therefore the force bonuses from the Fire tokens will be negated until the turn ends. " seems a little of a stretch. Shouldn't things like Creating Order just check force bonus and penalties that actually came directly from actions? Meiyus re-action created a token, nothing more.
2.) I know that fire tokens are different from weapon tokens or armor tokens; but in this certain circumstance, they are both tokens that give force bonuses. If Meiyu's Fire tokens can be negated by creating order, then i should be also able to negate a force bonus from actions such as Katana of Fire Exp, Bo of Water, Kaiu Village, and the like. The Explanation could be read as "Meiyu's flame katana token came from an action". Therefore the force bonuses from the Fire Katana token will be negated until the turn ends.
*Note that just like weapons, fire tokens have a +F. +3F from a weapon token and a +1F from a fire token are pretty much the same for this example. Couldn't I argue that the force bonus of both are FROM from the Tokens (not from the actions that created them)?
3.) I'm having a really hard time finding the comprehensive rules that differentiate tokens like fire tokens from weapon tokens for this certain example. Like from here - It could simply be argued that weapon tokens come from actions , since it was said that fire tokens come from actions. I mean it could read these ways: "Shameful Injury negates force bonuses (and penalties) from actions. It does not negate the force bonus from a fire token, since fire tokens are not actions." or "Shameful Injury negates force bonuses (and penalties) from actions. It will negate the force bonus from a weapon token, since creating a weapon token came from an action".
4.) Why are the origins of the tokens suddenly being checked for cards such as Warded Premises/Creating Order? Fire tokens may not be a "card" token, but why are their origins being checked unlike normal attachments? I could really argue that i can Shameful injury any weapon because most of them come from an action "Equip".
5.) Do you mean to tell me that we will be needing to track and differentiate our fire tokens now? Personalities who created fire tokens and were targeted by Tamori Takeshi earlier that turn would result in "un-negatable Fire tokens" - leading to a lot of confusion.
Therefore, tokens may have come from actions but are not actually actions?
Thank you.
Alex Jones (rules official), 1 March 2013
Greetings!
How will Creating Order interact with Fire Tokens (for example the one from Togashi Meiyu)? Will it negate the force bonus of the fire tokens or not?
Also, lets say i have 2 Togashi Meiyu and 2 Togashi Torazu (3 fire tokens each) and 2 Togashi Hogashi Hiroto (4 fire tokens Each) attacking my opponents last province. He Plays the card Warded Premises. Does the province break or all of my personalities' force are reduced to zero?
Creating Order Unique Battle/Open: Target one or two Personalities: Either negate all current and new Force bonuses and penalties on them from actions, or straighten their units
Togashi Meiyu Dragon Clan • Fire • Monk • Tattooed Reaction: After Meiyu enters play: Give her three +1F Fire tokens.
Tokens are not cards.
Effects which create a card type create cards, not tokens. For example, the two abilities on Kaiu Village create a Weapon Item and an Armour Item: since Item is a card type, these abilities create cards.
In Emperor Edition, cards (and the Rulebook) can be the source of effects, but tokens may not. The source of effects for a token is the card that created them.
See Non-card physical game elements, Tokens.