Overlaying

L5R CCG Rules board, 30 January 2013 to 1 February 2013

A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.

A player, 30 January 2013

Since as near as I can tell, a personality overlaying is not considered to enter play, does that mean that restrictions such as loyal are ignored?

A player, 30 January 2013

Since as near as I can tell, a personality overlaying is not considered to enter play, does that mean that restrictions such as loyal are ignored?

Honor Requirements are ignored, but all other entering-play restrictions must be met. This includes the Loyal keyword.

From the CR:

The overlaying Personality's Honor Requirement need not be met, but other requirements of play (such as the Loyal keyword) must be met before the card can overlay.

(Emphasis mine)

A player, 30 January 2013

The answer here regarding Overlaying and Loyal referenced a section of the CR that states that Loyalty is respected before overlaying can occur.

However, the quoted passage is not from the Overlaying rules, but the more specific rules regarding Experienced personalities. The actual Overlay rules state that, when overlaying, "triggered effects and other things" that are based on the entering-play process do not consider the overlaying personality to enter play. There is no reference to ensuring control is or would be legal, anywhere in the section.

Are these passages in contention? Does overlaying via the Experienced keyword check Loyalty and other control restrictions, while other sources of overlaying do not? Or should that passage appear in the general overlay rules rather than in the more specific Experienced section?

A player, 30 January 2013

The answer here regarding Overlaying and Loyal referenced a section of the CR that states that Loyalty is respected before overlaying can occur.

However, the quoted passage is not from the Overlaying rules, but the more specific rules regarding Experienced personalities.

That's because the Experienced keyword is the only "regular" way to overlay a Personality without a specific card effect (such as Goju Bunoro or Oyo's Second Lesson). The Glossary section for Overlaying is more focused with these cards, which usually involve two personalities in play, while the Experienced section focuses on the process of overlaying Experienced Personalities on their less-experienced versions, normally with the more Experienced version coming from a province.

The actual Overlay rules state that, when overlaying, "triggered effects and other things" that are based on the entering-play process do not consider the overlaying personality to enter play. There is no reference to ensuring control is or would be legal, anywhere in the section.

I'm kicking this to the Rules Junta in case a fix is needed, but in my opinion there's no contradiction. The Glossary section for Overlaying doesn't reference checking entering-play restrictions because it is said elsewhere, and both sections link to each other because they're heavily related. It can be argued that the Overlay section is incomplete, but the link to the Experienced section should be enough to hint you that the other section has rules that are relevant for overlaying.

Are these passages in contention? Does overlaying via the Experienced keyword check Loyalty and other control restrictions, while other sources of overlaying do not? Or should that passage appear in the general overlay rules rather than in the more specific Experienced section?

Kicking this for internal discussion.

Alex Jones (rules official), 1 February 2013

Since as near as I can tell, a personality overlaying is not considered to enter play, does that mean that restrictions such as loyal are ignored?

A number of Rules paragraphs describing overlaying have been moved in the Glossary from Experienced to Overlay.

Hopefully this should clear up any confusion.