A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 6 December 2012
Okay, so say I am a Scorpion Player... I use Ambush with Bayushi Joe to target Oni no oni. Ambush happens and resolves. At the trigger of the end of the Ambush, I use a 5 chi courtier (Let's say Nitoshi for this example) to rhetoric the honor losses to the player against me who is playing The Forgotten Temple as a stronghold.
Now the question is, since traits come before reactions, does this mean that the opponent still loses 5 honor? Or only one? My understanding is that since the traits come before the reactions (also since I am active player) it is too late for The Forgotten Temple's trait to activate.
Is this correct?
Thanks in advance!
Relevant Text: The Forgotten Temple You do not gain Honor. You may not take Political actions. You do not lose Honor from cards you own. Before you lose Honor: Reduce the loss to 1, which may not be increased. Rhetoric Political Reaction: Before a player gains or loses Honor from an action's effects, bow your performing Courtier: Choose another player. If the Courtier's Chi is higher than or equal to the Honor gain or loss, the chosen player instead of the original player takes the gain or loss. Ambush Limited: Choose your performing unbowed Personality and target another player's Personality: Create a battlefield (not at any province). Assign your Personality to attack there. Assign the target to defend there, even if he is bowed. Other Personalities will not move there. Fight a battle there (after this action's resolution). After the battle ends, lose 5 Honor.
Alex Jones (rules official), 6 December 2012
Okay, so say I am a Scorpion Player... I use Ambush with Bayushi Joe to target Oni no oni. Ambush happens and resolves. At the trigger of the end of the Ambush, I use a 5 chi courtier (Let's say Nitoshi for this example) to rhetoric the honor losses to the player against me who is playing The Forgotten Temple as a stronghold.
Now the question is, since traits come before reactions, does this mean that the opponent still loses 5 honor? Or only one? My understanding is that since the traits come before the reactions (also since I am active player) it is too late for The Forgotten Temple's trait to activate.
Is this correct?
Thanks in advance!
Relevant Text: The Forgotten Temple You do not gain Honor. You may not take Political actions. You do not lose Honor from cards you own. Before you lose Honor: Reduce the loss to 1, which may not be increased. Rhetoric Political Reaction: Before a player gains or loses Honor from an action's effects, bow your performing Courtier: Choose another player. If the Courtier's Chi is higher than or equal to the Honor gain or loss, the chosen player instead of the original player takes the gain or loss. Ambush Limited: Choose your performing unbowed Personality and target another player's Personality: Create a battlefield (not at any province). Assign your Personality to attack there. Assign the target to defend there, even if he is bowed. Other Personalities will not move there. Fight a battle there (after this action's resolution). After the battle ends, lose 5 Honor.
When the subject of honour loss is changed, a new timing window is opened for traits, effects and Reactions which trigger "Before a player loses honour" - it's the same honour loss, but the player is different.