A topic from AEG's L5R CCG Rules forum, copied for Oracle of the Void from a copy of the forum saved in October 2015, so pages it didn't save are missing. Players' names are left out; the rules officials are named. Rulings are as they stood on these dates; later rulings, the rulebooks and the Rules Archive may differ.
A player, 19 October 2012
A few questions on Asako Jukko
1) I'm wondering how Asako Jukko works with force/chi penalty/bonus tokens? For example: A) I have a BASE 2F/5C personality with a +1F Revenge token on him (so currently is 3F/5C). Asako Jukko switches that personality's force and chi. What is the personality's force and chi after Jukko's ability resolves? B) Alternatively, I have a BASE 1F/3C personality with a -1C Plague token on him (so currently is 1F/2C). My opponent uses Jukko to switch the personality's force and chi. Will the personality die from 0 Chi?
2) The following questions start with this premise: I have a BASE 6F/5C personality. My opponent uses Temple of Purity to give him personality -4F (so now 2F/5C), and then uses Jukko on that personality (so now 5F/2C).
A) What happens if Shameful Injury is played on that personality? How does this interact with Temple of Purity's "Can't be negated" clause to the force penalty? Does the "Can't be negated" clause carry over to the Chi penalty since the stats were switched? B) What if I play Aka-Beko on the personality? C) Same situation as "B", but the Jukko is controlled by me instead of my opponent (note that Aka-beko only negates penalties from other player's actions)
Relevant Text from Oracle - Asako Jukko - Battle/Open: Target a Personality with 1 Force or greater: Switch his Force and Chi. You may switch Jukko's Force and Chi. Temple of Purity - Open: Even if this card is bowed, target another player's Personality: Give him -4F, which will not be negated. Shameful Injury - Battle: Even if you control no units at the current battlefield, target a Personality: Negate all current and new Force bonuses and penalties on him from actions. Aka-Beko - Negate all (current and new) Force and Chi penalties to this Personality from other players' actions.
Thank you very much for your help! -Anthony Calabrese
Alex Jones (rules official), 21 October 2012
A few questions on Asako Jukko
1) I'm wondering how Asako Jukko works with force/chi penalty/bonus tokens? For example: A) I have a BASE 2F/5C personality with a +1F Revenge token on him (so currently is 3F/5C). Asako Jukko switches that personality's force and chi. What is the personality's force and chi after Jukko's ability resolves? B) Alternatively, I have a BASE 1F/3C personality with a -1C Plague token on him (so currently is 1F/2C). My opponent uses Jukko to switch the personality's force and chi. Will the personality die from 0 Chi?
2) The following questions start with this premise: I have a BASE 6F/5C personality. My opponent uses Temple of Purity to give him personality -4F (so now 2F/5C), and then uses Jukko on that personality (so now 5F/2C).
A) What happens if Shameful Injury is played on that personality? How does this interact with Temple of Purity's "Can't be negated" clause to the force penalty? Does the "Can't be negated" clause carry over to the Chi penalty since the stats were switched? B) What if I play Aka-Beko on the personality? C) Same situation as "B", but the Jukko is controlled by me instead of my opponent (note that Aka-beko only negates penalties from other player's actions)
Thank you very much for your help! -Anthony Calabrese
When switching stats, you give the lower stat a bonus to raise it to the former value of the higher stat, and you give the higher stat a penalty - of equal magnitude - to lower it to the former value of the lower stat.
So... 1. A) To switch the force and chi of a Personality with 3F/5C, you give him +2F/-2C. 1. B) To switch the force and chi of a Personality with 1F/2C, you give him +1F/-1C.
2. The Personality is 6/5 base, and gets a -4F penalty to go to 2/5. To switch his force and chi, he gets +3F/-3C. A) Shameful Injury negates force bonuses and penalties, so his force is now 6 (base) - 4 (Temple of Purity's penalty will not be negated) = 2F. His chi is 5 (base) - 3 (from Asako Jukko) = 2C. B) Your Aka-beko will negate the force bonus granted by another player's Jukko. C) Your Aka-beko will not negate the force bonus granted by your Jukko.
See Switch, aka Exchange, and Setting stats to a value.
A player, 22 October 2012
In reguards to this thread: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=100195 , I felt a little confused still on the math.
2) The following questions start with this premise: I have a BASE 6F/5C personality. My opponent uses Temple of Purity to give him personality -4F (so now 2F/5C), and then uses Jukko on that personality (so now 5F/2C).
A) What happens if Shameful Injury is played on that personality? How does this interact with Temple of Purity's "Can't be negated" clause to the force penalty?
Wouldn't timing come into effect on this one as well? Say for example, you used Temple of Purity before Jukko: i. (ToP) 6/5 -> (Non-negatable) -4/+0 -> 2/5 ii. (Jukko) 2/5 -> +3/-3 -> 5/2 iii. (Shameful) 5/2 -> (Removes +3 from Jukko) -3/+0 -> 2/2
However, if you used Temple of Purity *after* Jukko: i. (Jukko) 6/5 -> -1/+1 -> 5/6 ii. (ToP) 5/6 -> (Non-negatable) -4/+0 -> 1/6 iii. (Shameful) 1/6 -> (Removes -1 from Jukko) +1/+0 -> 2/6
So... I guess the question is: Does the timing actually matter? I believe it does, but not 100% sure.
Thanks!
Relevant Text from Oracle - Asako Jukko - Battle/Open: Target a Personality with 1 Force or greater: Switch his Force and Chi. You may switch Jukko's Force and Chi. Temple of Purity - Open: Even if this card is bowed, target another player's Personality: Give him -4F, which will not be negated. Shameful Injury - Battle: Even if you control no units at the current battlefield, target a Personality: Negate all current and new Force bonuses and penalties on him from actions.
Alex Jones (rules official), 22 October 2012
In reguards to this thread: http://www.alderac.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=100195 , I felt a little confused still on the math.
Wouldn't timing come into effect on this one as well? Say for example, you used Temple of Purity before Jukko: i. (ToP) 6/5 -> (Non-negatable) -4/+0 -> 2/5 ii. (Jukko) 2/5 -> +3/-3 -> 5/2 iii. (Shameful) 5/2 -> (Removes +3 from Jukko) -3/+0 -> 2/2
However, if you used Temple of Purity *after* Jukko: i. (Jukko) 6/5 -> -1/+1 -> 5/6 ii. (ToP) 5/6 -> (Non-negatable) -4/+0 -> 1/6 iii. (Shameful) 1/6 -> (Removes -1 from Jukko) +1/+0 -> 2/6
So... I guess the question is: Does the timing actually matter? I believe it does, but not 100% sure.
Thanks!
The order of the actions does indeed matter, as this will affect the bonus and penalty created by Jukko's action.